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Low CRs and "Boring" Monsters: Ogre
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<blockquote data-quote="Shadowdweller00" data-source="post: 6986907" data-attributes="member: 6778479"><p>Not relevant to the present discussion but incorrect. Effects that preclude player agency or cause PCs/NPCs to act in unrealistic ways are objected to. There are any number of ways to implement taunt effects without these.</p><p></p><p>And again, wrong.</p><p></p><p>Fiddly - <a href="https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fiddly" target="_blank">awkward or difficult to handle because of many small parts or details.</a></p><p></p><p>Some 4e special ability examples:</p><p>Yuan-ti Malison Sharp-Eye -[CODE]Longbow (Standard; at-will) <> poison, weapon. Range 20/40; +18 vs AC; 1d10+6 damage, and the yuan-ti malison sharp-eye makes a secondary attack against the same target. Secondary attack: +16 to vs Fortitude; ongoing 5 poison damage, and the target is dazed (save ends both).</p><p>[/CODE]</p><p>[CODE] Chameleon Defense: Concealment against attacks that originate more than 3 squares away</p><p>[/CODE]</p><p>Yuan-ti Malison Incanter - [CODE]Deflect Attack (Recharge 5-6): Transfers attack's damage and effects to an adjacent ally[/CODE]</p><p> [CODE]Mindwarp (Standard, at-will)<> psychic: Ranged 20; +20 vs AC; 2d6+7 psychic damage and the target is dazed (save ends)[/CODE]</p><p>[CODE]Poisoned Domination (Standard; recharges when first bloodied) <> charm: Ranged 5; affects a creature taking ongoing poison damage; +20 vs Will; the target is dominated until the end of the incanter's next turn. Aftereffect: the target is dazed (save ends).[/CODE]</p><p>This is not even a full listing of the special abilities from two related monsters. In short: Effect types varied, ranges varied, attack bonuses varied, damage types varied, defenses varied, exceptions varied. Frequently within the same stat block. None had any consistent logical basis. It was frequently prohibitive to keep track of different abilities in mixed encounter groups without wasting valuable play time flipping back and forth between listings. Let alone if you had multiple monster species types in the same encounter (instead of variations on a single monster type, which at least would be lumped together). Adverse conditional effects were often so anemic as to be barely worth keeping track of and rarely lasted more than a round or two. This isn't an issue that was unique to 4e (cf Pathfinder), but 4e had a propensity for a bazillion unique character and monster abilities instead of standardized procedures for attacks, spell-like effects, and maneuvers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I say squelch because maneuvers in 4e were implemented in a manner so as to render them worthless. Example: Two combatants are fighting atop a parapet. Combatant A decides to try and throw combatant B off the edge. In 5e this is simple - grapple check and done. In 4e this is technically impossible without some of class or monster-specific power because grappling could only pull an enemy behind the grappler. Even houseruling a grapple attempt to work in 4e required forgoing not one but two entire rounds worth of attacks (one to initiate the grapple and a second to move the enemy) with two chances to fail, making it a nonviable option.</p><p></p><p>I think you miss my point. A generic tactic is precisely how I'd personally run this. And yes, I'd let players attempt this too if there was a solid in-game and in-character basis: Not from simply eating a clove of garlic, unless the PC is trying to affect a vampire maybe, but if say a character had established a propensity for terrible hygiene and/or eating rotting foodstuffs and tried to use the tactic against an enemy that cared about cleanliness I'd certainly consider it. (Barbarian living in squalor vs Drow, for example).</p><p></p><p>Nothing personal, guy, but that's a mathematically illiterate statement. They're circumstantial, sure. But in general - making an enemy prone is worth the cost of an action if two or more allies with more than half equivalent offense can attack (with advantage from the prone condition) before the enemy can stand up. Inflicting the frightened condition or poisoned condition isn't effective at dealing damage, but if they prolong the fight for more than one attacks by allies...</p><p></p><p>More to the point though, as Sacrosanct went into, DPR isn't the defining characteristic of a good or interesting fight. Just so long the enemy STILL provides a reasonable challenge for its CR with alternate tactics.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Shadowdweller00, post: 6986907, member: 6778479"] Not relevant to the present discussion but incorrect. Effects that preclude player agency or cause PCs/NPCs to act in unrealistic ways are objected to. There are any number of ways to implement taunt effects without these. And again, wrong. Fiddly - [URL="https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fiddly"]awkward or difficult to handle because of many small parts or details.[/URL] Some 4e special ability examples: Yuan-ti Malison Sharp-Eye -[CODE]Longbow (Standard; at-will) <> poison, weapon. Range 20/40; +18 vs AC; 1d10+6 damage, and the yuan-ti malison sharp-eye makes a secondary attack against the same target. Secondary attack: +16 to vs Fortitude; ongoing 5 poison damage, and the target is dazed (save ends both). [/CODE] [CODE] Chameleon Defense: Concealment against attacks that originate more than 3 squares away [/CODE] Yuan-ti Malison Incanter - [CODE]Deflect Attack (Recharge 5-6): Transfers attack's damage and effects to an adjacent ally[/CODE] [CODE]Mindwarp (Standard, at-will)<> psychic: Ranged 20; +20 vs AC; 2d6+7 psychic damage and the target is dazed (save ends)[/CODE] [CODE]Poisoned Domination (Standard; recharges when first bloodied) <> charm: Ranged 5; affects a creature taking ongoing poison damage; +20 vs Will; the target is dominated until the end of the incanter's next turn. Aftereffect: the target is dazed (save ends).[/CODE] This is not even a full listing of the special abilities from two related monsters. In short: Effect types varied, ranges varied, attack bonuses varied, damage types varied, defenses varied, exceptions varied. Frequently within the same stat block. None had any consistent logical basis. It was frequently prohibitive to keep track of different abilities in mixed encounter groups without wasting valuable play time flipping back and forth between listings. Let alone if you had multiple monster species types in the same encounter (instead of variations on a single monster type, which at least would be lumped together). Adverse conditional effects were often so anemic as to be barely worth keeping track of and rarely lasted more than a round or two. This isn't an issue that was unique to 4e (cf Pathfinder), but 4e had a propensity for a bazillion unique character and monster abilities instead of standardized procedures for attacks, spell-like effects, and maneuvers. I say squelch because maneuvers in 4e were implemented in a manner so as to render them worthless. Example: Two combatants are fighting atop a parapet. Combatant A decides to try and throw combatant B off the edge. In 5e this is simple - grapple check and done. In 4e this is technically impossible without some of class or monster-specific power because grappling could only pull an enemy behind the grappler. Even houseruling a grapple attempt to work in 4e required forgoing not one but two entire rounds worth of attacks (one to initiate the grapple and a second to move the enemy) with two chances to fail, making it a nonviable option. I think you miss my point. A generic tactic is precisely how I'd personally run this. And yes, I'd let players attempt this too if there was a solid in-game and in-character basis: Not from simply eating a clove of garlic, unless the PC is trying to affect a vampire maybe, but if say a character had established a propensity for terrible hygiene and/or eating rotting foodstuffs and tried to use the tactic against an enemy that cared about cleanliness I'd certainly consider it. (Barbarian living in squalor vs Drow, for example). Nothing personal, guy, but that's a mathematically illiterate statement. They're circumstantial, sure. But in general - making an enemy prone is worth the cost of an action if two or more allies with more than half equivalent offense can attack (with advantage from the prone condition) before the enemy can stand up. Inflicting the frightened condition or poisoned condition isn't effective at dealing damage, but if they prolong the fight for more than one attacks by allies... More to the point though, as Sacrosanct went into, DPR isn't the defining characteristic of a good or interesting fight. Just so long the enemy STILL provides a reasonable challenge for its CR with alternate tactics. [/QUOTE]
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