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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6987513" data-attributes="member: 6696971">You and I have had this conversation before so I'll just reiterate my position back then (I want to say...2ish years ago after release?).The trap designing rules on DMG 121 incorporate the Improvised Damage which you find later in the book (which you can reference that page for the fluff if you want it).  However, it also provides a Bounded Accuracy value for Setback, Dangerous and Deadly for Saving Throws and Attack Bonus (therefore, being more substantial).But how robust is this in a granular combat engine with several interfacing mechanical components (that must be properly integrated to achieve something akin to a desired effect that is dynamic and neither too potent nor too weak) and 20 levels of play?1)  "...a setback is unlikely to kill or seriously harm characters of the indicated levels, whereas a dangerous trap is likely to seriously injure (and potentially kill) characters of the indicated levels. A deadly trap is likely to kill characters of the indicated levels."Ok, fair enough.  2)  1st through 4th level damage expressions is all under the umbrella of one value for each of Setback, Dangerous, Deadly; 1d10, 2d10, 4d10 respectively.So what now?  An Ogre's basic attacks are +6; 11/13 damage ranged and melee.Let us suppose that I want him to push over a tree onto the PCs (as I mentioned in the above post) because OGRE SMASH.  Mechanically, how do I derive this expression and how do these values help me?Damage Expression:  4d10 is "Hit by falling rubble in a collapsing tunnel, stumbling into a vat of acid" which seems right (fluff-wise), but that would be 22 damage (double the Ranged value for Ogre) with much more swinginess.  Dangerous (which is amusingly the equivalent of being struck by lightning and...stumbling into a fire pit) yields the value of the Ogre's Ranged damage; 11.  Riders:  Should this be knocked back for AoE for balance?  If so, at what scale?  Maybe look at 1st level AoE spells (Thunderwave does 9 damage and Forced Movement) given this is limited-use effect (Can't keep knocking down this tree)?  If I want the Forced Movement equivalent of T-Wave should the damage be 9?  What if I want prone or better yet, grappled (10 + the Ogres +4 or use something for the tree)?  Miss for half damage or the rider effect?Attack Resolution:  Saving Throw 10 or 11 DC (PC saves at early levels will be +0ish to +5ish)?  Reflex presumably.  Given this is an Improvised Action, am I checking Str (Athletics) to push the tree over first?  Ogre only has +4 (no Athletics) so I guess this puts this (IMO thematically appropriate) stunt well out of reach as is?  Even if we use a lower DC such as Medium (which doesn't seem to mesh with the system's goal of world-based objective DC-setting), losing an action due to the still rather rough compound probability math isn't ideal.Depending on how this gets mechanically contrived, this could be utter foolery (basically just voluntarily losing a turn given the failure prospects...notoriously an issue in lots of AD&D games with poorly adjudicated and opaquely conveyed prospects for improvised PC actions) or quite overpowered for the Ogres current CR.  Do we want our improvised stunts to affect CR (which this seems like it pretty much has to)?  Should we be mechanically carving this out beforehand and adjusting CR accordingly (thus dashing the "improvised" out of things)?</blockquote>

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