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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Xeviat" data-source="post: 6988292" data-attributes="member: 57494">That snip you caught seems to be a change on original 4E stuff. I seem to remember a rule on getting an extra saving throw to avoid forced movement when it would push you into hindering terrain, like over a cliff or into lava. I gave all of my non-essentials 4E books to a friend and I don't think the online compendium has that in there, but that's neither here nor there. That's definitely a situation where page 42 would step in. I wouldn't require a grab first; the point isn't to hold the person still (the condition inflicted by a grab). The point is to push them. If the height of the wall his hindering your ability to push them, then you take a penalty on the check.This whole side path is ignoring half of my first post, but it does speak to the "boring" half of my OP. Improvised actions can add spice and flavor to any monster, especially if the system gives you halfway decent guidelines on such actions. Case in point, I found the hydra to be a little lacking in 5E after coming off of 4E. I wasn't familiar with the 4E Hydra, but I was familiar with monsters having special actions to make combat with them unique. So, I had the hydra use two of it's bites to grab two of the PCs and pull them under the water. A little drowning did a whole lot to add urgency to the fight (and the bard ended up using his shiny new "cause fear" spell to get the hydra to "drop what it was holding", the players). But, the thing about the hydra is ...Hydra, CR 7HP: 172 (CR 7)AC: 15 (default for CR 7)Damage: 50 (CR 7)Attack: +8 (2 higher than CR 7, so +1 to offensive CR)ModifiersRegeneration: Sort of has regeneration 20. Regeneration says to add effective HP equal to 3x the regeneration amount. That would be +60 HP. That would raise it's defensive CR to 11, baseline 17 AC, so now it has 2 less AC, for a final defensive CR of 10. Since (10+8)/2 is 9, and the Hydra's CR is 8, I think they didn't count it's "Multiple Heads" ability as full fledged regeneration.The thing about the Hydra is that it's not weak for it's CR. Against a group that isn't prepped for a Hydra (isn't metagaming or doesn't happen to have a wizard whose bread and butter was fireball and scorching ray), the hydra is a little strong for it's CR.The ogre is not strong for it's CR. The bandit captain's damage is 17 compared to the Ogre's 13, but at least the bandit captain can spread those attacks across multiple targets when used as a low level "boss" type creature. The bandit captain has 65 HP compared to the ogre's 59. The bandit captain has AC 15 compared to the Ogre's 11. Reducing the Ogre to CR 1 would be "mathematically" appropriate by the DMG guidelines. Heck, damage 13 isn't even that outlandish for a CR 1 creature. The hobgoblin does 12 when it has a buddy near by, and it's CR 1/2. The bugbear does 11, or 18 with ambush (with ambush, it's average is 13), and it's CR 1. Quasit can do 10 with it's claws, but that's gate kept behind a really low save DC. Imp can do 15, but same story. A copper wyrmling is CR 1, and can pop you and your friends with a damage 18 breath weapon. Duergar do 11 when enlarged ...Heck, the giant centipede has a 14 damage bite and is CR 1/4, and the giant poisonous snake's is 16 for the same CR.But, I would want the ogre to be CR 2. If one shows up for a level 1 party, I want them to be terrified. I want them to run. They can't take this. As it stands ... with 59 HP ... (hiding some quick check for a basic party), they could take the ogre in 2 rounds, and as long as the fighter is the one taking the big hit (and the cleric uses a handy healing word to keep them up), be non the worse for wear. I want them to feel the ogre. Doubling it's damage, like I originally suggested by giving them multiattack, would probably be a bad idea, but DMG guidelines set 15-20 as appropriate CR 2 damage so a little bump could be good to make them worthy of their CR 2. Some weight to their attack would be good, like a prone or a knockback, but I'd say that about all giants; I cannot imagine a cloud giant kicking someone and them not going flying like a football (okay, most adventurers aren't full of air, so not quite as far). But ... all the fun improvisation doesn't help improve a monster's bad stats that don't match up to what a CR 2 monster should be.</blockquote>

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