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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 6991493" data-attributes="member: 6778044">It's not so much that they don't take the fiction somewhat seriously, it's that the focus has shifted over the years. I think it's a natural part to the game as well, as they've tried to make it easier to get in, especially as a DM.While 5e has done a good job at supporting exploration and interaction, the game is still heavily dependent on killing things and getting treasure. If you start with the Basic Set and work your way into the APs, it is very easy to play it with the idea that the important part of the game is gaining levels and gaining abilities, just like video games and board games. In a sense, it's a sort of "play to win" approach.Balance, protecting player niches, the design is very specific toward a party of 4, etc. all reinforces this in some way or another. Build Guides online, and the common complaints I see about certain things being overpowered and abused, especially in organized play, like banishment.It's not wrong at all. And honestly, I think it's probably the best approach for the game today, as it's much easier to understand how to play than it was back when I started in the late '70s. So I probably worded it wrong, but I think that a more casual style of play is the more common type of player, and they aren't interested in minutia of game design, game theory, etc. The ogres were easy? OK, what's next? They might not see any more ogres until the next AP. They are just another obstacle.I love this type of discussion, although I usually come at it from a slightly different perspective. Such as Ogres are very dangerous, to the average villager. One hit and they are usually dead. Although ogres aren't very intelligent, they are smart enough (like a predatory animal) to avoid a conflict with more creatures than they can count (which is probably 2). They are easy to goad, though, and will protect what is theirs to the death. When adventurers encounter them singly, they are probably out hunting and causing general destruction (breaking trees, throwing rocks, whatever). Otherwise, there will be several of them in the vicinity if near a lair.Goblinkin and orcs like to use them as brutes. They draw the heavy fire and break up the line while the humanoids attack the weak, those separated from their group, and so on. Again, two or three ogres are better at this. But the group as a whole probably still won't attack a larger force if they can avoid it.Really, I'm less concerned as whether any given monster is a good challenge for the PCs as designed per se, it's more about how they fit into the world as a whole. If that means they are a pushover for four 3rd-level PCs, then OK, they'd probably be trying to avoid those types. That is, their lairs will be far enough from civilization that they won't be perceived as a threat and hunted.I have tweaked ogres just a bit, but more of a general tweak of larger monsters. They get a +1 bonus to hit and damage for each size greater than their target. Also, creatures (with thicker skins) have resistance against slashing and bludgeoning weapons that are two or more sizes smaller. Piercing is much more effective. I have different types of arrowheads as well. Bodkin tips were good against metal armor, but not as much against a textile armor or the thick hide of an animal. A broadtip that cut through was more effective on those types of targets. Many creatures I've increased their AC. I've considered doing that for ogres, since it's 5 points lower than 3.5e, but I haven't yet.The general idea is that an ogre against a single individual is deadly, and against 2 or 3 is probably going to be deadly to at least one, and do some serious damage to another. Particularly with the injury rules we use. Beyond that, a trained group of adventurers should find a single ogre pretty easy to deal with. I would stay out of melee range where possible, but it's just not an intelligent enough fighter to give much of a challenge to a group of well trained individuals.That fits in my world very well. A single ogre might come relatively close to a settlement, but avoid direct contact (first because they are nocturnal, second because they'd avoid a group. But once one is known in the area, it will be driven off, or killed by a group.My tweaks, though, weren't to make the ogre itself more dangerous. They apply to a broad range of creatures and the injury approach addresses the fact that there aren't any long-term effects to combat in the base game. Probably not a good option for the folks that are playing a new AP every 6 months or so, as it will take away too much of their fun.</blockquote>

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