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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6430607" data-attributes="member: 2011">Well, you started your response with "I disagree with the initial premise."The initial premise is that low level wizards basically suck because they cannot pull their own weight in a group. You didn't give an example of that not happening initially, you just stated that the premise is incorrect.But you just stated in your previous post that they do good damage. Do you have an example of that?I'm not expecting to do a lot of damage. I am expecting to contribute in a worthwhile way a few times per adventuring day. That is not happening.In 20 encounters, my PC has done about 140 points of damage. That's not exactly contributing from a damage perspective. I don't need to be doing damage. I need to be contributing.Except that Charm is now "friendly acquaintance" as compared to the "trusted friend and ally" of earlier versions. If you are a security guard at a company, would you just let a "friendly acquaintance" take a tour of the plant? It's a much weaker spell now. Yes, the DM could blow that off and make Charm Person actually do something real, but it doesn't read that way. Because of that, a player reading the spell might not even take it (I know I didn't) because the utility sounds subpar.Player 1: "Wait a minute, I charm the guy at the trading store to give us a 10% discount which may or may not happen anymore because he is no longer a friend, just an acquaintance, and after we walk away, he knows he was charmed??? WT??????"I know that when I read the spell, it sounded like it was going to create more problems in the game than it would solve.In fact, the player of the ranger / wizard just commented Friday night on the fact that Charm Person sounds so lame. His exact words: "What the hxxx is up with them knowing that they were charmed? How is that useful?". Sure, if you are going to kill the Goblin after taking the tour, that doesn't matter. But in 90% of town encounters, it matters a LOT. It makes the spell drastically subpar.It's like making invisibility "sort of" invisible.City guard: "I can see you."PC: "No you can't."So, they use up an action to throw a flask of oil across the room to hit a single 5 foot square and then the next round, they use another action to set it on fire. In the meantime, the battle is almost won. Wow! That wizard is amazing!!!! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> (sorry, I couldn't resist <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> )Yes, I get the whole "they have minor utility in minor ways that may or may not happen".But, Bards have many of these things. Arcane Tricksters have many of these things.There is no wow factor here in anything that you posted with regard to the Wizard that other classes cannot also do.In the meantime, the Bard in our group is healing and casting the same Sleep spell and doing real damage in a fight.The Arcane Trickster in our group is doing a ton of damage and still using the same Color Spray and using the same Charm Person and using the same cantrips for opening a door without setting off a trap.That's cool. I do think that higher levels will probably work out better.But my low level experience has been meh at best. The wizard isn't doing that much that the Bard or Arcane Trickster isn't doing. And people blow that off with "you are not a team player", or "you don't pick the right spells", or "you don't know how to play a wizard", or "I disagree with the initial premise." or even "the player in my group doesn't feel that way" (and they never even asked their player). People are not being objective and looking at earlier versions of the same spells. They are not seeing that many of the other low level classes have many of the same spells that the low level Wizard has.I'm glad your player loves playing a high level wizard.My experience, though, is totally opposite. The wizard can do very few things out of combat that other PCs cannot do and he's a joke for the most part in combat. Yes, if my wizard would have taken the Sleep spell, he might have helped out a bit more. I just picked up Minor Illusion. Guess I'll create fake walls in combat for a while until we get to 5th level.</blockquote>

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