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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6434085" data-attributes="member: 4937">I think all of this is true.  I'd like to think that KD agrees.I think the heart of the discussion is KD's realization that he's got less hp, less AC, and less damage dealing capability than anyone else in the party.  In general, I haven't seen that denied.  In the past, he made up for all of that by doing the brokenness you talk about, plus lots of other things that aren't as broken.  He felt he know how to contribute and how to play the class.  Now, he's frustrated.So, just as a hypothetical, lets say that the wizard is averaging 3 damage a round and martial classes are averaging 5 damage per round.  (Not trying to be exact, just trying to describe how I'd like to see this discussion framed.)   Can you show different methods that reliably allow the wizard to either prevent 2.5 damage a round or boost an allies damage by 2 damage a round?   That is, can the Wizard dominate the action economy, either by debuffing enemies, buffing allies, or stealing actions?   Early in the thread back when people were actually listening to each other, several attempts were made at this, but KD - with some justification I think - noted that most of the highlighted features were mainly relevant at higher levels.   Other attempts were made that depended heavily on creative interpretations of the spells, which again I think badly argues the point.  Can we get some more argument along the lines of, "On average, a wizard can steal an enemies action every third round."   I know those hypotheticals are harder to prove, but if you can show that there are lots of opportunities to steal actions, and a range of tactics to employ, I think it's going to be more persuasive than going over 3e's problems for the 1000th time.</blockquote>

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