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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 6434430" data-attributes="member: 5834">Of course I think the new saving throw paradigm is weaker than previous editions. It's empirically provable that it is weaker. It was intended to be weaker. Invisible and Flying was always too powerful. I used that combination because it was a no brainer for the majority of encounters. Made you untouchable, especially at higher level once you obtained Mind Blank and could destroy opponent magic items. Are you understanding this was the intended design of the new game? The book is released. You will not change anything with this discussion. So this discussion is pointless. You either accept the new design philosophy for magic or you return to another game system. No more multiple buffs if they are concentration based. No more summoning multiple creatures. You must choose very carefully which spell you use. I completely understand either way you decide to go. I did not accept 4E and moved to Pathfinder after complaining as you are doing here. My complaints didn't change anything, but heck, I did it anyway. So I get the venting.The changes to 5E are no different than a martial having to accept he won't have 200 point crits any longer. He won't get to kill balors in one or two rounds. He doesn't get to cleave down ten creatures in an action or use Come and Get Me to slaughter anything in melee. The paladin doesn't get to smite evil and destroy creatures with massive archery crits. It's all toned down, including the wizard. It doesn't mean the wizard is weak, especially compared to the capabilities of other characters. It's not like martials aren't similarly toned down to wizards. They do far less damage and don't have anywhere near the powerful capabilities they had in 3E.You're arguing comparisons to older game systems rather than comparisons within the game. Why do your cantrips do less damage than a fighter's standard attacks? Because eventually your attacks will do far more damage than the other classes. Your capabilities will be far greater. If you look over the higher level spells, you'll get some serious power back later on. Not on par with 3E, but definitely powerful for 5E. They kept the low level wizard slower power progression because it is in line with D&D standards. So you are weaker relatively to your martial counterparts in damage dealing at low level, but at higher level you become much, much stronger in overall capabiltities. From what I can tell the wizard is designed to do a smaller amount of damage continuously with cantrips with occasional big boosts of power through his spells. I'm used to that type of play, so it doesn't bother me.I loved playing the uber wizard like yourself. I did it for years and did it well. That fits a certain type of fantasy paradigm in the Raistlin and Elric mold. I'm also ok playing toned down Gandalf or Conan level wizards. It's a different type of fantasy paradigm where you don't get to dominate, but at the same time you are still formidable. It call comes down to what you feel like doing. As another long time wizard player that loved controlling the battlefield, I'm having fun doing so on a much smaller, less permanent scale. Sure my spells only last a round or two at best due to the save every round. I don't hit as hard as the martials with my at wills, though as a wizard I never did unless it was AoE. I can't buff myself defensively to be nearly untouchable, then again I never read or saw Gandalf or Conan Wizard's buffed and untouchable flying in the air out of reach of the enemy. I don't see why I should have to be able to do that to be effective and be part of a story. Bottom line is I'm having fun with the wizard. I'm finding ways to be effective. I'm looking forward to my higher level capabilities. I don't feel weak relative to the other classes. I feel unique, effective, and am having a ton of fun learning the new system. One thing I do like is I don't feel like I'm overshadowing the martials in this game. I still remember my most recent arcanist wandering around ending most fights with color spray, while relaxing in the back letting the martials letting the martials take the damage. In my last high level campaign the blaster Cross-Blooded sorcerer was nuking for 250 points a round in 30 foot radius annihilating large groups while flying and invisible. The martial characters were bored and wanted to be back at level 10 or 12 where they felt useful. I won't have to worry about that in this game hopefully. Though Shapechange does look really nasty. Polymorph spells appear to have gotten back a lot of their power in this edition. I'll wait for full judgment until I test out the wizard at all levels.</blockquote>

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