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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6519021" data-attributes="member: 2011">I apologize, but I do think that anyone who disagrees with someone on most every single point brought up is one of those people who like to argue. I suspect that you will argue about this. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing    :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />You came up with the ridiculous Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat solo first level wizard against an Iron Golem example. That did not seem like humor. It sounded serious.You think that spamming low level spells against legendary resistance is not metagaming. How exactly do PCs know that LR works 3 and only 3 times a day? That's a game mechanic. Just like hit points. PCs should not know about hit points either. Just damage, healing and magical spells that protect (i.e. temp hit points). Most creatures that ever fight against a legendary resistance monster do not live to tell the tale, so how exactly is it NOT metagaming for players to spam low level spells against one? Why would they even know that it has such an ability, let alone how often a day it can use it? Tales of such a creature should just say that magic almost never seems to affect it. Period.You came up with the troll encounter and when I illustrated that it was not a great web encounter based on other factors (like your example started with the PCs holding a tunnel), you kept changing the goal post and finally went off and ran an encounter.So yes, I find your side of the discussion to be mostly argumentative; sometimes ignoring or putting a spin what I write (for example, your "make up your mind" comment) or coming up with ideas that you then try to defend against all odds.And that's fine, but that just means that the bard and cleric got nerfed.Maybe not, but you wrote "If it weren't for Web spells, there would be a giant hole in my feasible scenarios."This seems to imply that wizards who do not have web prepped are at a serious disadvantage. Just like Sleep, there shouldn't be a spell that wizards cannot basically do without, without gimping themselves.I think Thunderwave is an extremely situational spell. I think my PC used it once in four levels (died just before level 5). Maybe twice.I used Disguise Self once. I never got to use Suggestion (although I tried to talk the group into it once, we changed the plan). Polymorph, too high level for low level Wizards.I used Chromatic Orb once. I used Burning Hands maybe twice. I used Scorching Ray maybe three times.I used Mage Armor about 6 or 8 different days (that sucked up a lot of resources for an Abjurer, but I did not find out about Alarm until much later, but it still sucks up a prep slot) and the Shield spell maybe 2 or 3 times (with an abjurer, usually I just let foes hit my PC and was often not the target of spells).I used Web a lot, maybe 5 or 6 times. I used Fog Cloud quite often, at least 4 times. I was practically forced to use these spells because most other spells do not have as much effect on combat. I used Scorching Ray instead of Fog Cloud in the encounter that my PC died in. I had used Web first against the BBEG (4th level PCs against a Bone Naga). It did nothing. Two Naga lightning bolts later, my PC was dying on the ground. With hindsight, Fog Cloud would have kept him alive after the first bolt attack (but there was nothing to indicate that he would be the target a second time since I had moved my PC wizard behind NPCs to get out of the line of fire), but again, the wizard doesn't really shine, even with something like Scorching Ray and even with 3 PCs out of 6 attacking the Naga (the other 3 PCs were fighting the other 4 NPCs).No doubt. There are dozens of spells at each level. Only a small handful per level are really worthwhile in combat and then, most of them are extremely situational. Thunderwave is a nice example. How often is the Wizard going to move up and Thunderwave foes? If it doesn't knock them back, there's a good chance that they will still be able to get within melee range on their next turn and may be able to run down the wizard.I enjoy the fact that there are some nice out of combat spells. But what I do not like is that the martial PCs shine round in and round out, dropping a foe most every round or two, whereas the wizard tends to maybe / maybe not cast a worthwhile spell in combat 0 to 2 times per encounter at low level. Mostly, they spam cantrips. zzzzzzz Even when the real spells work, the wizard often gets hit and drops concentration, or the NPCs get around to making their save and the spell is no longer helpful.One round spells tend to be lame and the game revolves around that. Sure, the players can get lucky and a spell will last for more than a round, but many spells save right away and then again at the end of the NPCs turn. The odds of failing two spell saves tends to be less than 50%, sometimes quite a bit less, so these types of spells tend to last a single NPC turn at least half of the time.I think you and I will just have to agree to disagree. I find 5E low level wizard spells and tactics to be subpar. You might not.</blockquote>

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