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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6520116" data-attributes="member: 6787650">It's kind of frustrating trying to respond to a metric ton of questions and comments from you all in the same post, especially when you keep forgetting the context, but I'll give it one more shot, numbering the answers for clarity:1.) 80% was my best guess at the dragon's success rate on Int saves. I said it would probably be 50% for Dex saves. Since your spell DC is 16, it turns out that I was spot-on.2.) Legendary Resistance: your original claim was that Legendary Resistance is a metagame construct, not something the creature chooses to do and can be tricked on. I just pointed out that it isn't a metagame construct. You don't need to get defensive and try to create a separate argument about how hard White Dragons are to trick. Just say, "Yeah, you're right, it isn't" and let's move on.3.) Phantasmal Force specifies that the creature/object being created has to fit within a 10' cube. Normal Air Elementals are Large Creatures. They fit within a 10' cube. It's not a "tiny elemental", it's a regular one. It doesn't matter that the dragon is moving, Air Elementals move faster than dragons do, and Phantasmal Force doesn't require the created creature to remain stationary.4.) If you create an illusion of a Web instead, it doesn't matter that it's not anchored: the Web spell doesn't collapse on itself for a full round ("at the start of your next turn"). If the dragon fails to save it will come crashing down that round. The illusion has done its job.5.) RE: "There is no trick, it doesn't work like you think... Why do you keep insisting things work a certain way when they don't?" See above. I've established that the rules actually do work that way. You didn't actually try to target the weakest saves via Phantasmal Force so your anecdotal experience that it "doesn't work" isn't even applicable. (I've also said that relying on status spells isn't my preferred approach, but that has nothing to do with whether or not the math adds up.)6.) "Have you fought a dragon yet in its lair?" As a PC? No, when I play my DM leans more on super-buffed demons and large groups of mind flayers. But what of it? When I DM, my job is to know how to play the creature, which means I need to analyze its strengths and weaknesses in advance so I know how the fight will go. (I also need to think about which available tactics the dragon is actually smart enough to use.) First we establish what the weaknesses are (Int saves), then we can have a conversation about what the dragon can do to cover those weaknesses (leverage mobility; lurk in the water with a Held breath weapon; try to attack from unexpected angles) and then a conversation about what the dragon will do (does it have the right personality/intelligence to lurk? White Dragons are arrogant). Since there are no actual White Dragons in real life, your anecdotal experience doesn't actually generalize, it just expresses how your personal DM likes to play them.7.) You've got a Bard in the party, and he has access to Faerie Fire (whether or not he actually took it).8.) Yes, of course Phantasmal Force is concentration. We've been over this numerous times. Why don't you just take for granted that I know as well as you do what the opportunity cost is for Phantasmal Force? Remember that the "Phantasmal Force" is under the tangent of "how can you burn through Legendary Resistance?" and not "what would Max actually do to kill a White Dragon?" I would use Phantasmal Force-type tactics if I were in a party consisting entirely of Lore Bards, who have no choice but to burn through Legendary Resistance in order to do anything useful to it. I wouldn't use it as a wizard--I've made it abundantly clear that my preferred tactics are more direct.9.) It depends on the level, but I think it unlikely that a given individual in the party will be able to withstand more than one breath weapon attack without falling to zero HP, thus requiring a Healing Word. The party as a whole can easily withstand multiple breath attacks simply by ensuring that each breath weapon only hits one individual. I believe you also mentioned that you have a Cleric--if so, Death Ward will add one to the number of breath weapon attacks it takes to bring an individual down. (And before you crabbily point out that dragons have melee attacks as well as breath weapons, and that relying on Healing Word is dangerous--stop! I already know that! and I assume you know it too! But the question you asked wasn't about melee attacks.)10.) RE: "You can't space to close together or you get wasted by the breath weapon. You don't want to spread out too far or the cleric can't heal the martials and you can't get spells on them." You say this like it's a hopeless dilemma. It's not, these are just constraints on the solution, and you have to solve for the constraints. 65 to 75 feet, for example, is not "too close" (you won't both get hit by the breath weapon) and it's not "too far" (Healing Word has a range of 60 feet, so you can move, heal the martial, and move back). This is why math trumps anecdotal experience... all your experience tells you is what didn't work, but math and the Player's Handbook tell you what does work.11.) RE: "There are logistical issues to deal with that you are completely ignoring as you make it sound easy to do the strategy you're laying out. It isn't. It doesn't work like you're listing. The reason I know this is experience fighting the creature."Of course I'm ignoring your logistical issues. For example, finding corpses for skeleton archers; finding bows for skeleton archers; getting the archers through Oyavigatton without getting killed by trolls or ice toads. I'm ignoring them not because I'm stupid; I'm ignoring them because they're a separate issue, and because the details and complications of implementing a strategy are best left to those who are actually in the game. (In fact, that's the funnest part of the game! Getting caught by an ice nomad while you're digging up their graveyard--or trying to get them to lead you to some dead goblins--is way more entertaining than the actual battle with the dragon where you unleash 8 or 12 or 30-odd skeletal archers on the hapless dragon. Strategic play is more fun than tactical play.)Whew! That means we're finally done then. You've "told" me lots of things. Half of them are things that are demonstrably false; the other half are things that I've already told you first but that you somehow think I don't know.</blockquote>

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