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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6544249" data-attributes="member: 2011">Tactical behavior isn't cheesy. Trying to take advantage of a loophole in the rules that results in a major advantage, or trying to convince your DM to allow you to do something which the game does not typically allow, or the designers explicitly yanked out of the new version in order to gain a major advantage, is cheesy.I have no problem with a rogue winning init and then readying a thrown weapon for when the fighter moves up. He's using the coordination rule ready to accomplish this. I have a problem with a player whining because his rogue has a high Dex, hence, he sometimes goes before some of the melee PCs and hence cannot always get sneak attack damage in the first round. That player should learn to ready an action, or like you said, hide more often.Btw, I calculated the odds for the Rogue in our group. Our group of 6 PCs had at low level a Rogue (init +3), 2 other melee PCs with initiative modifiers of +2, and +1 (this is before level 4 when the Cleric who is 90% melee took the Alert feat to get to +7), 2 semi-melee PCs that might or might not go into melee on round one with initiative modifiers of +3, and +2, and a non-melee wizard. Assuming that one of the two semi-melee PCs would go into melee on round one of a given encounter, the odds of the Rogue beating all of the melee PCs in initiative are about 60% beating melee 1 times 55% beating melee 2 times 53% beating semi-melee 1 or 2 or 17.5% of the time. One encounter in six more or less.Now, the odds are worse because the dead wizard got replaced with a paladin. 65% (Rogue bumped Dex to 18) * 35% (Alert feat) * 60% (one semi with Dex +2 became more melee, the other with +3 became more limited melee) * 60% (Paladin has 14 Dex) or 8%, or one encounter in 12. The rogue has the best Dex in the party and only wins initiative over the melee PCs once every other day (less often than that does he have the highest PC init).Granted, smaller groups, the odds go up, groups that the PCs do not focus on Dex (or the Alert feat), the odds go up, and groups with a lower percentage of melee types, the odds go up. But, if a player is playing a rogue in a small group with few melee types, he should consider hiding more (and/or readying an action to throw a dagger).</blockquote>

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