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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 6594101" data-attributes="member: 2011">Force advantage in favor of the PCs? Seriously? At third level, our 6 PCs were attacked by 12 foes. Two of them were at least level 5 in plate (2 attacks per round), 2 were attack dogs with the stats (and pack attack hence knock PCs prone) of wolves. 2 were warhorses in barding with trample (again knock PCs prone), 2 were bowmen hiding in trees of at least level 5 (2 attacks per round), and the remaining 4 were about level 3 (based on hit points). So they outnumbered our attacks per round 16 to 6, they outnumbered our hit points 3 to 1, and 4 of them had better AC than anyone in the party.This is a challenge. Action economy is way in the NPC's favor and only spells can barely make the difference (we ended up using up practically every resource and still just barely winning). The DM didn't hold back. Every foe attacked every round and used focus fire tactics. That's what I mean by a real challenge. The "neogis don't order the umber hulks back to the surface" to fight suboptimally and not with their best abilities in mind to be shot by archers from rooftops, neogis seek cover if they are getting attacked (like real troops in the real world) and let the umber hulks move in underground to take out the enemies. A set of bear traps and caltrops doesn't stop the enemies (we prepared with the best terrain available there too and we had traps set up in our fight too, but only one of them worked once, a trip wire, the first casualty of any battle is the plan). The enemies do not bring catapults to the fight but fail to have scouts out and guards with them at all times to protect themselves. High int neogis let the umber hulks do all of the fighting and only come in to mop up or come out and fight when they the risk to themselves is lower. They do not make suboptimal decisions. They make the best decisions the DM can think of because in reality, the DM himself might not have an int as high as the neogis should.Fights like the one I describe here are memorable. I remember it to this day 6 months later. I remember the exact makeup of the foes and the terrain. Why? Because the DM threw a tough fight at us and did not hold back and it was just a hair away from a TPK. Fights like the one he described where "we beat them with relative ease because of the level of coordination and tactics" and "They defeated it with moderate difficulty. I think one cure wound spell. This is a pretty standard encounter for our group." where the foes should have killed his party 3 times over so obviously the DM made the bad guys lose do not sound as memorable, especially as a "pretty standard encounter".Not too long ago, the 6 5th level PCs and 2 3rd level NPCs in our group were teleported into there different groups in Undermountain (totally random: 2 PCs 1 NPC in one group, 3 PCs in another group, 1 PC and 1 NPC in the third group). Each group teleported in naked with a (again totally random) pile of other PC/NPC gear next to them. After several preliminary combats each that used up some resources, all three PC groups ended up converging on an Orc defensive stronghold (designed to withstand attacks from the other local denizens) where they were outnumbered 20 to 8 (with a shaman and Orc leader) and the PCs couldn't cast about half of their spells because they did not have the proper material components and most of the PCs had weaker armor and/or weapons (a few had tad stronger) because (for example), the Rogue cannot wear plate mail, so he had nothing to wear; and the PCs were not even initially in the same rooms and able to assist each other if needed. All one single running nonstop encounter where the enemies were all fighting from round one and the PCs were hampered with coordination and spell selection and equipment.Force advantage in favor of the PCs? Combat as Sport? Yes, the Orcs outnumbered the PCs by 5 to 2, but they were not 2 levels higher like in his example (in fact, 90% of them were 2 levels lower than most of the party) and did not outnumber them ~5 to 1 like in his example. Extremely challenging, but not so ridiculously so that the DM has to step in to save the day.I get it that this style of "let's throw a bunch of high level monsters for the party level, but play the monsters suboptimally for their intelligence and give the PCs a bunch of cannon fodder allies so that the PCs have a fighting chance" works for your table. It just wouldn't work for my table. My players want a tough challenge, but not a ridiculous one where the DM then has to save their butts for them.I do think that it's great that different tables find different ways to have fun. But if someone plays in a fairly non-standard game, then they should expect that different tactics and different spells would work better or worse for them because a significant portion of how the game is played is different.</blockquote>

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