Low-Magic: spell progression and magic traditions (longish)

[GlassJaw]

I'm working on a low-magic campaign right now and I'm using Grim Tales for most of the mechanics but I want to expand the casting rules a bit. Overall, the campaign is sort of a Conan meets Cthulhu meets Mad Max.

I plan to have three types of magic based on each of the mental attributes:

Int: Uses formulas and equations to manipulate magic. Can only be learned from books and tomes or taught by someone else. Most of this magic is destructive or affects matter.

Wis: A druidic/shamanistic path that uses the elements and nature spirits to invoke magic. Different tribes have different methods and styles. This type of magic deals with animals and the elements.

Cha: Uses the individual's inner strength to create magical affects. This technique cannot be learned. Most of this magic deals with enchantments or healing.

Each tradition will require a feat to learn (although they may not be available to all characters). Int magic requires the character to learn a spell on their own (using the GT rules). Only members of a tribe can learn Wis magic (and probably have to complete some sort of ritual as well). For Cha-magic, I'm considering having each player roll some kind of percentile check during character creation to see if their character has the innate talent required. They then can take the feat if they choose to.

I also don't plan on making any spells list although their will be general guidelines (as described above). I want each caster in the campaign world to be very unique and have their own style.

My main "dilemna" right now is figuring out how magic-sensitive characters will learn more spells. I don't want any spells known or spells per day charts (casting spells may result in some kind of damage, either non-lethal, lethal, or ability). There are also no bonus spells for high ability scores. For Int-based magic, it's easy enough: the player just has to find more written spells and learn them or find someone willing to teach them (unlikely early on).

For "non-written" spells, it's a bit more difficult. I'm just looking for ideas on mechanics so Wis and Cha-based casters can learn more spells. I was thinking about creating additional talent trees but it seems unfair that the Int-based casters don't need to spend talent slots to learn more. The argument to that though is that anyone can learn Int-based magic on their own. They don't have to be a member of a certain tribe or have an innate talent.

Another idea I had was granting a new spell each level the player takes in the appropriate class (Dedicated Hero for Wis, Charismatic Hero for Cha) and set some kind of level limit on the spell level they can learn (like class level/2 or something). Thsi way, a character who takes all 20 levels in a class will have 20 spells (does this seem like too many?). I can then allow players to use their talent slots if they want additional spells. The argument to this is the Int-based caster gains no advantage by taking the Smart Hero class.

Any thoughts here? Am I on the right track? This is my first shot at a low-magic spell system.

 

[BiggusGeekus]

For Cha-magic, I'm considering having each player roll some kind of percentile check during character creation to see if their character has the innate talent required. They then can take the feat if they choose to.

Don't do this. The guys who want to play CHA-casters will get ticked and the guys who don't want to play CHA-casters won't care. Just make the feat available to the players if they have 5 ranks in the skill of your choosing. That keeps them from becoming a spellcaster at first level (this is a big gimp on casting) and they'll know they can play the character they want if they try hard enough.

For "non-written" spells, it's a bit more difficult [to determine how they gain spells]

Why? Why not use the same mechanism? Call the WIS-based ones "prayers" and the CHA-based ones "discoveries" (or something).

 

[GlassJaw]

Quote:
For "non-written" spells, it's a bit more difficult [to determine how they gain spells]

Why? Why not use the same mechanism? Call the WIS-based ones "prayers" and the CHA-based ones "discoveries" (or something).

Because with Int-based magic, they need a source: a tome, tablet, scroll, etc. I can limit what they find this way. It's not based on levels or feats or anything like that. It's strictly in-game. This is both an advantage and disadvantage of this type of magic. Anyone can try to learn spells but they must find them (or be taught). Casting spells in this way consists of reading the formula directly from the book (it doesn't disappear) and having any necessary components.

With "innate" or spiritual magic, I can't do this so I need some sort of mechanism that allows them to gain new spells.

 

[der_kluge]

Firstly, I agree with BG on the rolling method - bad idea.


Secondly, you could implement a similar system for wis/cha casting as you are for int casting. That is, in order to learn a new spell, they have to find someone who knows it, and that is willing to teach it to them.

The process for them just doesn't involve paper.

Did you ever play a game called LOOM?

It was an old PC game (circa '92/'93). The main character could play notes on some instrument that he had, and each song would produce a magical effect. As the game progressed, he would hear songs in different places, and he would learn them. For example, in one scene he sees this old lady rocking a baby to sleep, and she hums this lullaby to the baby. Your character witnesses this transaction, learns the song, and the song affects targets like a sleep spell. It was a great game.

Well, I don't know... it could work. I guess some of those spells are really more internal.

You could implement some sort XP point buy system for purchasing new spells if you wanted a mechanic for it. You may also need some sort of mechanic for wizards creating their own spells, too. That will likely come up at some point.

I would just encourage you to take steps to ensure that you aren't limiting spellcasters as compared to non-spellcasting classes. Otherwise, people playing casters will feel gipped.

 

[GlassJaw]

I would just encourage you to take steps to ensure that you aren't limiting spellcasters as compared to non-spellcasting classes. Otherwise, people playing casters will feel gipped.

Well isn't that the point of low-magic? The casters are "gipped". Remember, there are no caster classes per se. Any class can learn to cast magic of some kind, some are just better at it than others.

Firstly, I agree with BG on the rolling method - bad idea.

Yeah, I agree. I just want a mechanic that makes those with an innate talent to be rare but I also want it to be something they can decide on at first level even if they can't use it yet (like taking a feat but developing it later on as they progress).

You could implement some sort XP point buy system for purchasing new spells if you wanted a mechanic for it

That's an idea. It would make sense from the standpoint that the person is burnng some of their "essense" in order to manipulate more powerful magic. It puts them at a disadvantage but hey, that's the price to pay if you want to use magic.

Actually, I do like that because it would explain why some people may have the fgift but are never able to develop it; they just can't (or don't) spend the XP's. I guess this would work for the shaman tradition too.

 

[mmadsen]

Well isn't that the point of low-magic? The casters are "gipped".

No, that's not the point of low-magic. The point is that magic is rare and special, and that the world largely operates like the real world. The goal is not to stick it to the spellcaster in the party. Unless you're setting up a straw-man argument for the high-magic crowd to knock down...

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

With "innate" or spiritual magic, I can't do this so I need some sort of mechanism that allows them to gain new spells.

Spirit guide (or draconic/demonic tutor).

 

[reddist]

I'm trying to do something similar in my own campaign. Here's what I've got so far...

-Wizard spell selection is very limited after around 3rd level. Beyond that, it'll take either research, specialized libraries, or what I give them as loot in spellbooks or scrolls to learn new spells. This way I can sort of control what magic they have available to them. They ARE PCs, though, so I am not going to intentionally hinder them. The heroes are always better than the NPCs at stuff.

--For spontatneous arcane casters and divine casters both, they will have to go through some sort of personal hardship or trial to open up new spell levels. This might involve some sort of sacrifice or mini-quest, and it might be a personal thing (for sorcerers) or some sort of ritual (for clerics). Until they go through the "trial" that unlocks new spell levels, they will have the SLOTS available when they go up a character level, but not yet a new level of spells.

For example, the Orc tribes IMC have both sorcerers and shamans. The shamans undergo ritual scarification as they increase in power, and each round of new scars, that pain and suffering, opens up a new level of spells. The sorcerers do something similar, but they use tatoos.... with inks they retrieve on a sort of spirit quest. Each new tattoo unlocks the next level of spells.

It'll be different for the PCs, of course. Clerics might undergo a quest or a ritual performed by other higher-level clerics to unlock new spell powers. Bards might have to uncover a fragment of The One True Song or discover a piece of oration from an anciet political leader. Sorcerers may have to defeat a more powerful sorcerer or magical creature and absorb their power. It'll depend on the PC and where she wants to go with her character. At any rate, it takes some event to unlock the next level of spells.

So basically I don't use any mechanics for creating a low-magic game. I do it all through roleplaying, and its character driven. Since these hardships are, well, hard, most NPC casters don't want to bother with them, so most available magic is pretty low level.

-Reddist

 

[der_kluge]

Well isn't that the point of low-magic? The casters are "gipped". Remember, there are no caster classes per se. Any class can learn to cast magic of some kind, some are just better at it than others.

Well, yes and no. The idea of a low-magic game is to tame the levels of magic and keep it from getting out of hand. The idea of low-magic is NOT to screw all the people who decide to play spellcasting classes.

That is, if you start with the (reasonable) premise that all the classes are balanced to one another, and then you require that certain specific classes get a -2 to all saving throws, all ability scores, and all rolls in general, and have to start with a +1 ECL, then you're not exactly going to get people flocking to play those classes. Then you'll just end up with NO magic, and I'm not sure that's where you want to go.

One approach is the one often quoted on these boards, and that is to require all spellcasting classes to multi-class with a non-spellcasting class, such as rogue or fighter. That way, at 20th level, the best your spellcasters are managing is 10th level of a spellcasting class, which is 5th level spells. It keeps them balanced in the sense that they still enjoy bonus feats, and extra hit dice from fighter levels, or extra skills and abilities from rogue levels, for example.

D&D is built on a foundation of balance. So, if you're taking away from something, you need to be giving to something else.

So, you need to decide what your game will look like at 20th level (or whatever max you set). Do you want 20th level spellcasters casting 9th level spells, or not? Figure that out, and then work your way backwards.

 

[molonel]

As someone else has already said, don't make Cha-based magic a percentile roll. When I first read that, my thought was, "Hello, 1st Ed. AD&D psionics! Long time no see!" Don't go there. If someone wants to play it, then let them play it. Or pay for it. Or seek it as a Prestige Class.

I recommend setting down some sort of guidelines for spell lists. Although saying, "I want each caster in the campaign world to be very unique and have their own style" sounds very generous and open-minded, it will create more work for you later if the campaign lasts very long. Setting down restrictions at the beginning is easier than creating them on the fly later.

For Wis-based casters, and Cha-based characters, you might consider some sort of "worthiness" or "piety." It doesn't have to be directly clerical, or even appeal to the ideals of a particular god or goddess or set of gods. But power becomes available based upon accomplishments. You can set up a loose system of known accomplishments or goals that a character can accomplish on a regular basis - for example, praying for an hour in the morning, or performing some sort of ritual observance - in order to access low level magics and cantrips. Ritual observances, like a High Mass or Beltane Ritual might be required for more powerful spells.

You also might look at the magic system in Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed for some ideas.

Well isn't that the point of low-magic? The casters are "gipped". Remember, there are no caster classes per se. Any class can learn to cast magic of some kind, some are just better at it than others.

I'm actually going to agree that this isn't the goal of good or well-made low magic game systems, but it is, unfortunately, the result in poorly implemented or badly thought-out low magic systems.

No, that's not the point of low-magic. The point is that magic is rare and special, and that the world largely operates like the real world. The goal is not to stick it to the spellcaster in the party. Unless you're setting up a straw-man argument for the high-magic crowd to knock down...

Or he might simply provide evidence that the way in which some people approach low magic diminishes magic rather than heightening its appeal. That is the danger of a poorly designed low magic system, especially when the primary or apparent goal is simply diminishing character power. Whenever someone mentions making magic "special" I always envision a group of robed casters with wands and staves getting in line for a short yellow school bus.

Almost nobody plays a fantasy or sci-fi game because they want to stay in the so-called "real world." Even in low magic, or grim-and-gritty combat systems, there is a strong element of heroic unreality. I'd say "nobody" but I'm sure there is someone out there somewhere who loves playing Taxes: The Accounting, or d20 Shopkeeper: The Haggling, or Housekeeper 2.0 - The Dusting, or d20 Suburbia: Return of the White Picket Fence.

I'm still waiting for d20 Modern Network Admin to come out, but until it does, I'll have to be content with my job.