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<blockquote data-quote="Brother MacLaren" data-source="post: 1537482" data-attributes="member: 15999">You're confusing what the character does (and thinks) with what the player does (and thinks).&nbsp; The character thinks &quot;These foes are lightly armored and don't have shields, so I can swing hard without trying to be precise.&quot;&nbsp; The player thinks &quot;I'll power attack for 2 points.&quot;&nbsp; Now, I don't play with optimizing mathematics, some players do.&nbsp; The way I play, I can quite clearly envision a fictional character choosing a particular option (charging, attacking from higher ground, fighting defensively) according to the situation.&nbsp; The rules as written enable me to play fighters with a feel that corresponds (in my mind) to the warriors of legend.&nbsp; Perhaps if you are referring to FR fiction or anime or something... my taste runs more towards stories where magic is wondrous and mysterious.&nbsp; Comic books come to mind as one example where what would otherwise be called magic is presented as predictable, reliable, and routine (and often has a pseudo-scientific explanation).&nbsp; Much as I like Superman, that's not what I want in a wizard.You missed my point.&nbsp; Game mechanics are not directly the issue.&nbsp; The feel of the game is the issue.&nbsp; Game mechanics are only relevant to this discussion to the extent that they impact the feel of the game.&nbsp; As I've said before, I don't like fumble systems that mean an expert swordsman will drop his weapon once every twenty swings - because the feel of the game is altered by that mechanic.&nbsp; I take serious issue with this.&nbsp; There is very little that is more insulting than telling another person what they think.&nbsp; I do not lie to myself and I do not lie to you - I like magic.&nbsp; I just want to make it feel more magical, more wondrous, more amazing, more mystical.&nbsp; Don't insult me by telling me what I think.&nbsp; I *hate* magic feeling like science or technology.&nbsp; If I want science and technology I'll play d20 Modern.&nbsp; It's not just magic.&nbsp; I've had DMs who see the various &quot;races&quot; as being like the real-world &quot;races,&quot; and that bothers me because it isn't fantastical enough.&nbsp; I'd much rather see goblins be the unfortunate side-effect of a tribe of humans who expelled all malice from their beings.&nbsp; I'd rather hobgoblins be utterly alien, sustaining themselves on the experience of battle rather than on food.I want to be imaginative, as do many of the posters here.&nbsp; We're trying to discuss how magic can be made wondrous again.&nbsp; I gave several concrete ideas in my previous post.&nbsp; We're not attacking the idea of magic in the game.Here's one more, for anybody else still reading: alter the ways spells work, tell the players you are making changes, but don't let any players know what specifically the changes are except the players who are playing wizards - and only let them know the changes to the spells they have plus a few more.&nbsp; This only works if the players trust you not to shaft their wizards, but it can be great fun.&nbsp; Much of the &quot;magic&quot; is lost in games because PCs know what to expect.&nbsp; They know the PHB.&nbsp; Your options are to go to other sources for spells and hope your players don't have those books, or make some subtle alterations to the existing spells.&nbsp; Cosmetic changes are one option.&nbsp; Mechanical changes are another.&nbsp; The same is true for monsters - perhaps what everybody refers to as &quot;trolls&quot; are hulking creatures as in LOTR, with the stats of hill giants.&nbsp; And maybe owlbears regenerate.&nbsp; Maybe the things that look like carrion crawlers have a rusting attack, and maybe giant beetles have displacement.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Brother MacLaren, post: 1537482, member: 15999"] You're confusing what the character does (and thinks) with what the player does (and thinks). The character thinks "These foes are lightly armored and don't have shields, so I can swing hard without trying to be precise." The player thinks "I'll power attack for 2 points." Now, I don't play with optimizing mathematics, some players do. The way I play, I can quite clearly envision a fictional character choosing a particular option (charging, attacking from higher ground, fighting defensively) according to the situation. The rules as written enable me to play fighters with a feel that corresponds (in my mind) to the warriors of legend. Perhaps if you are referring to FR fiction or anime or something... my taste runs more towards stories where magic is wondrous and mysterious. Comic books come to mind as one example where what would otherwise be called magic is presented as predictable, reliable, and routine (and often has a pseudo-scientific explanation). Much as I like Superman, that's not what I want in a wizard. You missed my point. Game mechanics are not directly the issue. The feel of the game is the issue. Game mechanics are only relevant to this discussion to the extent that they impact the feel of the game. As I've said before, I don't like fumble systems that mean an expert swordsman will drop his weapon once every twenty swings - because the feel of the game is altered by that mechanic. I take serious issue with this. There is very little that is more insulting than telling another person what they think. I do not lie to myself and I do not lie to you - I like magic. I just want to make it feel more magical, more wondrous, more amazing, more mystical. Don't insult me by telling me what I think. I *hate* magic feeling like science or technology. If I want science and technology I'll play d20 Modern. It's not just magic. I've had DMs who see the various "races" as being like the real-world "races," and that bothers me because it isn't fantastical enough. I'd much rather see goblins be the unfortunate side-effect of a tribe of humans who expelled all malice from their beings. I'd rather hobgoblins be utterly alien, sustaining themselves on the experience of battle rather than on food. I want to be imaginative, as do many of the posters here. We're trying to discuss how magic can be made wondrous again. I gave several concrete ideas in my previous post. We're not attacking the idea of magic in the game. Here's one more, for anybody else still reading: alter the ways spells work, tell the players you are making changes, but don't let any players know what specifically the changes are except the players who are playing wizards - and only let them know the changes to the spells they have plus a few more. This only works if the players trust you not to shaft their wizards, but it can be great fun. Much of the "magic" is lost in games because PCs know what to expect. They know the PHB. Your options are to go to other sources for spells and hope your players don't have those books, or make some subtle alterations to the existing spells. Cosmetic changes are one option. Mechanical changes are another. The same is true for monsters - perhaps what everybody refers to as "trolls" are hulking creatures as in LOTR, with the stats of hill giants. And maybe owlbears regenerate. Maybe the things that look like carrion crawlers have a rusting attack, and maybe giant beetles have displacement. [/QUOTE]

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