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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 1557594" data-attributes="member: 18280">Sorry, but I have to disagree.&nbsp; I don't believe that this argument is indicative of a bias against magic.&nbsp; Rather, I believe that it is a call for magic that feels &quot;magical&quot; to the original poster.&nbsp; What you are suggesting is analogous to claiming that the &quot;Grim n Gritty&quot; combat thread is evidence of a bias against combat.Ultimately, the problem arises, IMO, from determining if magic is a science or not.&nbsp; If magic is a science, then the D&amp;D rules are fine.&nbsp; Consistently applied, magic brings about consistent results.&nbsp; If magic is not a science, if it, in fact, borrows from the powers of Things Man Was Not Meant to Know, or some form of Unstable Quasi-Reality That Lies Behind Our Own, then the magic system is going to need tinkering.From a folklore/myth viewpoint, magic acts more through symbolism than through exacting methodology, and even when performed properly its results are not necessarily all that is desired.&nbsp; In D&amp;D, magical power is controlled through &quot;spell slots&quot; inherent to the caster.&nbsp; In most mythology/folklore, magical powers are taken from greater beings with, or without, their consent.&nbsp; D&amp;D magic is powered by the concept that &quot;the more things you kill/defeat, the more XP you get, the more powerful you become.&quot;&nbsp; Mythic/folkloric magic is powered by the idea that &quot;the more you know, and/or the more power you accumulate through ritual/meditation/sacrifice/etc, the more you can do...but there still may be unexpected prices to pay, or consequences to what you do.&quot;Some fixes that can be used toward making D&amp;D magic more mythic include:&nbsp; 1)&nbsp; Restore the &quot;you have to have a copy of a spell to learn it&quot; rule from previous editions of D&amp;D.2)&nbsp; Extend the ideas of rare/common spells and Witching Sites/Times from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed to other classes.3)&nbsp; Have some spells cause Powers checks ala Ravenloft, and/or Sanity checks ala Call of Cthulhu/Unearthed Arcana.4)&nbsp; Make racial/societal spell lists.&nbsp; An elf from Mirkwood knows different spells than a dwarf from the Lonely Mountain.5)&nbsp; Use some of the excellent alternate spellcasters as NPCs/Pcs -- everything from Conan's Scholar, through Monte Cook's Witch and Greenbond, to the really flavorful classes in the Medieval Player's Handbook.I agree with Kamosa about a lot of the monsters, though.&nbsp; If you go straight by the core books, they are too cheesy/video-gamey for me.&nbsp; These require more of a &quot;flavor&quot; fix than a &quot;rules&quot; fix though.&nbsp; Change the fluff, and the crunch is alright.&nbsp; Except, or course, sanity checks for some aberations and undead.&nbsp; And vampires who suck blood instead of levels.&nbsp; And faeries that seem like faeries.....Raven Crowking</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 1557594, member: 18280"] Sorry, but I have to disagree. I don't believe that this argument is indicative of a bias against magic. Rather, I believe that it is a call for magic that [I]feels [/I] "magical" to the original poster. What you are suggesting is analogous to claiming that the "Grim n Gritty" combat thread is evidence of a bias against combat. Ultimately, the problem arises, IMO, from determining if magic is a science or not. If magic is a science, then the D&D rules are fine. Consistently applied, magic brings about consistent results. If magic is not a science, if it, in fact, borrows from the powers of Things Man Was Not Meant to Know, or some form of Unstable Quasi-Reality That Lies Behind Our Own, then the magic system is going to need tinkering. From a folklore/myth viewpoint, magic acts more through symbolism than through exacting methodology, and even when performed properly its results are not necessarily all that is desired. In D&D, magical power is controlled through "spell slots" inherent to the caster. In most mythology/folklore, magical powers are taken from greater beings with, or without, their consent. D&D magic is powered by the concept that "the more things you kill/defeat, the more XP you get, the more powerful you become." Mythic/folkloric magic is powered by the idea that "the more you know, and/or the more power you accumulate through ritual/meditation/sacrifice/etc, the more you can do...but there still may be unexpected prices to pay, or consequences to what you do." Some fixes that can be used toward making D&D magic more mythic include: 1) Restore the "you have to have a copy of a spell to learn it" rule from previous editions of D&D. 2) Extend the ideas of rare/common spells and Witching Sites/Times from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed to other classes. 3) Have some spells cause Powers checks ala Ravenloft, and/or Sanity checks ala Call of Cthulhu/Unearthed Arcana. 4) Make racial/societal spell lists. An elf from Mirkwood knows different spells than a dwarf from the Lonely Mountain. 5) Use some of the excellent alternate spellcasters as NPCs/Pcs -- everything from Conan's Scholar, through Monte Cook's Witch and Greenbond, to the really flavorful classes in the Medieval Player's Handbook. I agree with Kamosa about a lot of the monsters, though. If you go straight by the core books, they are too cheesy/video-gamey for me. These require more of a "flavor" fix than a "rules" fix though. Change the fluff, and the crunch is alright. Except, or course, sanity checks for some aberations and undead. And vampires who suck blood instead of levels. And faeries that seem like faeries..... Raven Crowking [/QUOTE]

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