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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6068934" data-attributes="member: 2067">I'm pretty sure I'm sympathetic to the end point of this line of thinking, but I think saying Hercules is mundane is stretching quite far. He is the child of a god. He is literally MADE of the world of the unseen and omnipotent. There are a lot of examples of actual badass normals in myth, so I think your overall point stands OK, for a mythic-style game. But a lot of games hit 14th level and aren't playing superhero godlings. Mandating a game-style change like that is problematic for the game. <a href="http://daedaluswing.wikidot.com/tiers-as-treasure" target="_blank">14th-level rogues don't HAVE to be mythical bandit kings</a>. As a corollary:Learn how saints work and get back to me on that.For me, this is kind of a game-play issue. If what works against every other monster works against dragons, dragons work just like every other monster, and aren't awesome battles of legend. It's fine, but I don't think it results in gameplay that's quite as good as dragons being big centerpiece threats. A Wizard SHOULDN'T be able to telekinesis a golem if that golem is going to be the big centerpiece fight of the game, and dragons should be, IMO, that big centerpiece fight. I'm generally for mundane magical (salt SHOULD stop vampires!), and I think that requiring magic to fight dragons as a default is problematic (as I pointed out above), but if you're going to cite evidence for mundane heroes beating the snot of out dragons, don't give me saints and godlings. Because fiero.Keen senses don''t make a dragon unrecognizable. You already noted 2e (aka: the Era of Dragonlance). Throw in 1e, too. And don't forget that dragons in both 2e and 3e were spellcasters, and thus able to augment their perception in various ways (3e red dragons especially had access to certain divination spells). It's not a marginal concept.No one gets to play gatekeeper on what is a "real" dragon and what is a "knock off." There's no authoritative bible canon on what makes for a fitting dragon. D&D dragons should be designed for the requirements of a simple D&D game which, IMO, includes them being big threats rather than normal monsters. No one said otherwise. But whether those 14th level effects are like unto a mythic demideity or whether they are just kind of impressive normal feats is not something that needs to be set in stone and assumed for all players. 14th level D&D needn't be that epic. It's not that epic in 4e, and it's not that epic in E6 and not every DM likes that epic feel. Let's not pretend there is only one correct way to play, only one correct dragon to fight, and only one correct way to view a 14th-level rogue.</blockquote>

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