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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6068943" data-attributes="member: 87792">No they don't.  You can add yet another definition to the word "level" and change the game.  You can introduce any of a thousand different hypotheticals.  But these hypotheticals have nothing to do with D&D Next until someone puts them into D&D Next.D&D Next as it stands gives certain characters explicit power based on their level.  Those characters are spellcasters.  When you go back to spells strictly given out as treasure and never part of the advancement of characters then tiers become part of the treasure to hand out.  D&D does not do this - so at least some of the classes have tiers not as treasure but as advancement.  Making your link somewhat less relevant than a link to GURPS rules.14th level rogues in the current version of D&D Next have to be mythical bandit kings or levels do not make sense.You can only be declared a saint after death.  And saints are something that exist in the real world.For me, Dragons are the most awesome monsters going.  There's no way to simply punk them and they all need to be treated with care.  A gimmick monster like a real (i.e. not 3.5) golem is a gimmick monster and that gimmick makes the fight.  Dragons need no gimmicks.  And there is no easy way to beat them.  The reason you can ambush them if you get dragons right is that you must ambush them to stand a chance.A reply that's wicked through and through?But you have been doing just exactly this.  You have been saying dragons should get various properties like exceptional senses that are not part of the core concept.  You object that the rogue shouldn't be able to sneak up on the dragon.  You are trying to play gatekeeper.And I disagree.  A wyvern in a lot of mythology is a knock-off dragon.Then we can stop setting spells in stone?  If level equates to spell then level equates to power.  Greater Teleport is way beyond "impressive normal feats".  Your entire argument would only make sense if spells had no defined power levels and were simple relative.In 4e and in e6 the 14th level wizard doesn't have greater teleport and plane shift. If the rogue can't keep up with the wizard then the rogue's level should be capped at the last point at which they can. And we are talking about the December playtest packet of D&D Next. A game in which the level 14 wizard does have greater teleport, plane shift, and invisibility. So a 14th level rogue should be as awesome as someone with greater teleport, plane shift, and invisibility. If you don't like characters being that awesome don't play at that high level. If you don't think wizards should be that awesome petition to have wizards power level capped. That's unless you want the rogue to be the wizard's bumbling sidekick. Or you want the rogue to be capped at level 7 - so the massive power difference is actually reflected by the game rather than fooling people through false labelling.Because things stand, level 13 means "The level when wizards get Greater Teleport and Plane Shift" amongst other things.</blockquote>

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