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<blockquote data-quote="Campbell" data-source="post: 5922895" data-attributes="member: 16586">I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. The novice I presented isn't exactly a bumbling buffoon. Given the scale of DCs presented in the DM's Guidelines he's reasonably competent at breaking and entering and should be able to make his way past a lax guard patrol most of the time. If he meets a kobold or goblin in a dark alley he'd probably get the best of them especially if he got the&nbsp; jump on them (read: Advantage). Here's the thing. He's still not fit to embrace the adventuring life. Our novice thief does well enough to scrap together some silver, but send him into the goblin's den to steal some jewels and he'll get strung up by his ears. On the other hand, a rogue is a professional thief. He's cool under pressure - regular locks are trivial to him. He knows how to take advantage of unaware enemies. He has a more varied skill set and has learned how to keep to the shadows. He's someone you can count on in a tight spot.I guess what it comes down to is I really don't like the 3e conception of 1st level adventurers who should have stayed back at the farm. Rogues who can't even pick the simplest of locks. Fighters who quake in their boots at the thought of staring down a couple of kobolds. I never experienced that when I played AD&amp;D.I'm also pretty skeptical of the idea that a level 10+ character is the equivalent of a professional athlete. In AD&amp;D those are the levels where you're venturing to the Demon Web Pits and spell casters get reality warping magic. That's big damn hero time. Fighters command armies. Thieves run guilds.I'm okay with some scaling, but adventurers need to be truly competent to start. I just can't wrap my mind around the fiction of what they're doing otherwise.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Campbell, post: 5922895, member: 16586"] I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. The novice I presented isn't exactly a bumbling buffoon. Given the scale of DCs presented in the DM's Guidelines he's reasonably competent at breaking and entering and should be able to make his way past a lax guard patrol most of the time. If he meets a kobold or goblin in a dark alley he'd probably get the best of them especially if he got the jump on them (read: Advantage). Here's the thing. He's still not fit to embrace the adventuring life. Our novice thief does well enough to scrap together some silver, but send him into the goblin's den to steal some jewels and he'll get strung up by his ears. On the other hand, a rogue is a professional thief. He's cool under pressure - regular locks are trivial to him. He knows how to take advantage of unaware enemies. He has a more varied skill set and has learned how to keep to the shadows. He's someone you can count on in a tight spot. I guess what it comes down to is I really don't like the 3e conception of 1st level adventurers who should have stayed back at the farm. Rogues who can't even pick the simplest of locks. Fighters who quake in their boots at the thought of staring down a couple of kobolds. I never experienced that when I played AD&D. I'm also pretty skeptical of the idea that a level 10+ character is the equivalent of a professional athlete. In AD&D those are the levels where you're venturing to the Demon Web Pits and spell casters get reality warping magic. That's big damn hero time. Fighters command armies. Thieves run guilds. I'm okay with some scaling, but adventurers need to be truly competent to start. I just can't wrap my mind around the fiction of what they're doing otherwise. [/QUOTE]

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