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<blockquote data-quote="BSF" data-source="post: 1251619" data-attributes="member: 13098">As Alchemist indicates, the ECL in the MM is a +3 for a weretiger and it is slightly misleading.&nbsp; If you look at the stat blocks, the weretiger gets 1d8+1 plus 6d8+18 Hit Dice.&nbsp; The 6d8+18 is from the &quot;tiger levels&quot;.&nbsp; The +3 ECL is on top of this.&nbsp; Personally, I think this was less than clear.&nbsp; My first inclination was to assume that the 6d18 were part of the lycanthropic curse.&nbsp; As it turns out, it is not.&nbsp; So, the 6 levels of &quot;tiger&quot; and the +3 ECL for lycanthropy are where the Dragon article bases it's 9 level progression from.&nbsp; But, enough with repeating Alchemist.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Yes, on the surface, turning the template into a class progression looks weak.&nbsp; I'm not sure this bears out in practice if your players recognize the strengths of the template classes.&nbsp; The WotC site does not have a progression for the tiger.&nbsp; But, it does have one for the bear.&nbsp; If you take a look at that, the bear will gain +16 to Str over the course of 6 levels.&nbsp; It will also gain a +8 to Con, +2 to Dex, +5 to Natural Armor, and a few other things that could be very tasty to play with.&nbsp; This is in addition to the Wis bonus, Natural Armor bonus and damage reduction that the lycanthrope has.&nbsp; Coupled with the hybrid form, this bear can now use a great axe.&nbsp; Now, contemplate your Barbarian character looking at those bonuses.&nbsp; A hybrid raging werebear is a bit intimidating.&nbsp; Now, would a Bar5/lycanthrope2/bear6 be the equal of a Bar13?&nbsp; Good question.&nbsp; Assuming the stats are the same...The werebear will have a BAB of +9, the normal barbarian will have a BAB of +12.&nbsp; But, the werebear will have an additional +8 attack/damage from Str bonuses, a +1 to AC from Dex, +7 Natural armor bonuses, etc.&nbsp; There are trade offs, but in this case, I can see where playing a werebear barbarian could be a lot of fun.&nbsp; Still, if you permit the characters to take template class levels, they can mix and match as they please.&nbsp; They don't have to take any levels.&nbsp; Or they could max it out.&nbsp; If you are a wizard, you might not be as interested in taking bear levels.&nbsp; Maybe the lycanthrope levels would be nice for the damage reduction, but that is at the expense of spells.&nbsp; What about the werepanther rogue that uses sneak attack?&nbsp; Could be interesting.&nbsp; So, I wouldn't classify the templates classes as weak.&nbsp; But, they may not be optimal selections for all characters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="BSF, post: 1251619, member: 13098"] As Alchemist indicates, the ECL in the MM is a +3 for a weretiger and it is slightly misleading. If you look at the stat blocks, the weretiger gets 1d8+1 plus 6d8+18 Hit Dice. The 6d8+18 is from the "tiger levels". The +3 ECL is on top of this. Personally, I think this was less than clear. My first inclination was to assume that the 6d18 were part of the lycanthropic curse. As it turns out, it is not. So, the 6 levels of "tiger" and the +3 ECL for lycanthropy are where the Dragon article bases it's 9 level progression from. But, enough with repeating Alchemist. :) Yes, on the surface, turning the template into a class progression looks weak. I'm not sure this bears out in practice if your players recognize the strengths of the template classes. The WotC site does not have a progression for the tiger. But, it does have one for the bear. If you take a look at that, the bear will gain +16 to Str over the course of 6 levels. It will also gain a +8 to Con, +2 to Dex, +5 to Natural Armor, and a few other things that could be very tasty to play with. This is in addition to the Wis bonus, Natural Armor bonus and damage reduction that the lycanthrope has. Coupled with the hybrid form, this bear can now use a great axe. Now, contemplate your Barbarian character looking at those bonuses. A hybrid raging werebear is a bit intimidating. Now, would a Bar5/lycanthrope2/bear6 be the equal of a Bar13? Good question. Assuming the stats are the same... The werebear will have a BAB of +9, the normal barbarian will have a BAB of +12. But, the werebear will have an additional +8 attack/damage from Str bonuses, a +1 to AC from Dex, +7 Natural armor bonuses, etc. There are trade offs, but in this case, I can see where playing a werebear barbarian could be a lot of fun. Still, if you permit the characters to take template class levels, they can mix and match as they please. They don't have to take any levels. Or they could max it out. If you are a wizard, you might not be as interested in taking bear levels. Maybe the lycanthrope levels would be nice for the damage reduction, but that is at the expense of spells. What about the werepanther rogue that uses sneak attack? Could be interesting. So, I wouldn't classify the templates classes as weak. But, they may not be optimal selections for all characters. [/QUOTE]

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