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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shalimar" data-source="post: 1755328" data-attributes="member: 9600">My suggestion would be to just make characters for them that are better put together then the archtypes.  Once they play with coherent and competent characters, their complaints will fade.  Try this, some of us who know the system will throw up a few, and you can give them to your players to run against the book characters, or against the npcs you would make. Try this for a more competent scrapper then the pugilist:Stats:STR 16(6)+3DEX 20(10)+5CON 18(8)+4INT 10(0)WIS 14(4)+2CHA  14(4)+2Saves:Damage: +4 (When not flat footed or area attack, may sub Reflex in for +15)Fortitude: +4Reflex: +15Will: +2Combat:BAB 10(30pp) +13 Melee(+15 w/ attack finesse), 15 ranged, +13/+13 (Rapid)BDB 10(20)  36(20 Flat Footed, 22 mental)Powers:Super Dexterity +10(extra: strike; 5pp/rank, 50pp)Feats: 6 (12pp)all out attack, attack Finesse, dodge, evasion, Power Attack, Rapid strikeSkills: 6 (6pp)Bluff +4(2)Sense Motive +4(2)Taunt +4(2)  Look at the differences between that character and the pugilist.  They both are the same character type, agile scrappers who mix it up in melee.  I am one hundred percent certain that this character could take out the minotaur baring some fluke rolls, and even those are alleviated by HPs, spend an hp, and you would never fail a check by more then maybe 4-5.  Conversely, with a defense of 37 against minotaur you are rarely if ever going to be hit, and you can hit hard enough without resorting to power attack to burst through up to rank 13 protection.  With power attack and all out attack you can reduce your defense bonus to 32(31 against a group) and be punching at +18(a damage save of 33). lets see how minotaur would fare against a mentalist with the following power set. Telepathy +10(extras: Mental Blast, Paralyze; 5pp/rank, 50pp) The mental blast character is going to have a high wisdom, just as the brick will have a high constitution and strength, lets go with a 20 for wisdom, not out of line, with other archtype character's and their main stat.  Lets take a BAB of 5, rather low, but thats ok. so the mental blaster rolls a D20 and adds +10, unless minotaur has a high wisdom, it should be a lot easier to hit with a mindblast then with a fist, and you can do it no matter how far away you are.  Then has has to make a damage save using his will save instead of his damage save so he doesn't get the amazing save damage, or protection applied.  Assuming he has a 14 wisdom, he has to make a DC 25 roll with only a +2.</blockquote>

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