M&M errata and rules issues

[Dragonblade]

I just bought Mutants and Masterminds and totally love it! This is one of the coolest supers games I've ever seen!

But as I was reading through it several things bothered me:

Spinning is listed a stunt of Super-speed. Shouldn't getting access to a whole other power at your super-speed rank be an extra and not a stunt?

Also, Time travel and Time Freeze (Paralysis) are listed as stunts of Time Control. Shouldn't those be extras as well? Considering they are complete powers in their own right?

Transformation is way overkill. Its basically a Save or die power if used on an opponent in combat. It needs to cost a lot more or have more drawbacks. Like requiring the opponent to not only fail their Reflex save but a Fortitude save as well before being transformed.

Also, the Damage Save mechanic, while ingenius and cool in concept doesn't play too well. No hero worth his salt will ever have a damage save of less than +10. Anything else is suicide. Especially considering that one poor roll on that save can take you out of the combat or even drop you permanently.

Look at Captain Thunder on page 166. He has a punch that does +14 damage but his damage save is only +4. That means if a comparable villain with a similar punch nailed him he has to roll 1d20+4 vs. DC 29?!

Thats crazy! Unless he rolls a natural 20 he is going to be stunned or disabled. He can't even take his own punch!

I think the Damage Save rules need a little more tweaking to promote game balance.

Now, don't get me wrong. I love this game. These are just some small things that bug me. Minor imperfections in an otherwise brilliant game! Kudos to Steve Kenson!

What do the rest of you think?

 

[ToddSchumacher]

Captain Thunder has an extra of Protection on his super strength....whch adds his rank to his Damage Save. So a +14 for him!

 

[Petrosian]

Going for some level of +10 on your damage save certainly seems like a wonderful idea.

However, there are other options. Going for a really high evade score so that you are not hit as often seems also to be a good idea.

If you match up evenly on defense vs offense, then a hit will do nothing 30%, hit 25%, stun 255, and KO 20%.

If you match up at say 5 to the bad, these numbers shift to nothing 5%, hit 25%, stun 25% and Ko 45%.

these are all after you have been hit.

if the lesser guy has a 255v chance of being hit, compared to a 50% chance for the first guy then the overall results of a SHOT becomes...

Tough guy... nothing/miss = 65%, hit=12.5%, stun=12.5%, Ko=10%

Dodgey guy nothing/miss=76.25%, hit=6.25%, stun=6.25%, KO=11.25%

Dodgey guy has a higher chance of taking nothing from a shot and only a slightly higher chance of a KO, after all the misses play into it.

The assumption is that if one guy spends his points on the WALL for defense (high damage save, force field, protection) the other guy will spend his on avoidance.

"Hit less often but when hit more damage" is a long standing balance aspect. it looks to me like they have achieved it fairly closely.

Now if the non-10 defense guy spent his points on non-defense, then yes he should be more vulnerable, though he should gain benefits from that other thing he purchased.

I expect that most player characters will indeed tend to have maxed defenses more often than not, simply because it is affordable. However, it looks to me like there are so many different types of attacks that go right past the damage save that a guy who cuts his force field a little light in order to get amazing save will or fort or ref or all three will see it worth his while.


About the only difference i would have made is to have there be an additional category for damage (or perhaps add this to "hit" would be better) that cost you a half-action. After a while, i might put that in as a house rule for hits.

Also, the Damage Save mechanic, while ingenius and cool in concept doesn't play too well. No hero worth his salt will ever have a damage save of less than +10. Anything else is suicide. Especially considering that one poor roll on that save can take you out of the combat or even drop you permanently.

Look at Captain Thunder on page 166. He has a punch that does +14 damage but his damage save is only +4. That means if a comparable villain with a similar punch nailed him he has to roll 1d20+4 vs. DC 29?!

Thats crazy! Unless he rolls a natural 20 he is going to be stunned or disabled. He can't even take his own punch!

What do the rest of you think?

 

[TedJMill]

Spinning is listed a stunt of Super-speed. Shouldn't getting access to a whole other power at your super-speed rank be an extra and not a stunt?

Also, Time travel and Time Freeze (Paralysis) are listed as stunts of Time Control. Shouldn't those be extras as well? Considering they are complete powers in their own right?

Transformation is way overkill. Its basically a Save or die power if used on an opponent in combat. It needs to cost a lot more or have more drawbacks. Like requiring the opponent to not only fail their Reflex save but a Fortitude save as well before being transformed.

Super-Speed and Time Control are expensive powers with a wide variety of effects categories. The powers added as stunts fall under the secondary effects rule (p.95). For example, Time Control already includes the Slow power as an attack, so Time Freeze is just an alternate form of attack buyable as a power stunt.

For Transformation, note that the basic Duration is Sustained, so the Transformed target changes back if the attacker is stunned. Raising the Duration to Continuous is an extra, and even then it's reversed by Neutralize. So it's only a temporary incapacitation, not Save or Die.

 

[Dragonblade]

Transformation is still Save or Die with or without the continuous extra. And even with an extra or two its still very powerful for the cost.

For example, you turn someone into a frog and step on them. Or (I don't have my book handy so I may be wrong about this) you get the inanimate extra and turn them into glass and smash them.

No way around it, this power is rule zeroed in my game unless its watered down a lot more.

I can also accept Time Freeze as a stunt of Time Control but not Spinning as a stunt of Super-speed or Time Travel as a stunt of Time Control. Those should be extras. And Time Travel will be rule zeroed for all the headaches it could create.

As far as the Damage save goes, I think an opposed roll works much better than the save DC being 15+Damage bonus and other mods.

Attacker rolls d20+Damage bonus and Defender rolls d20+Damage save bonus. It gives slightly weaker characters at least a chance at surviving a hit by a tank.

 

[TedJMill]

Transformation is still Save or Die with or without the continuous extra. And even with an extra or two its still very powerful for the cost.

For example, you turn someone into a frog and step on them. Or (I don't have my book handy so I may be wrong about this) you get the inanimate extra and turn them into glass and smash them.

Those things involve deliberately killing a helpless target. If you want to do that, you don't need to bother with Transform; it's cheaper to just buy Paralysis (or some other power that temporarily incapacitates someone) and cut the victim's throat while they're standing there.

While if you don't want to deliberately kill helpless targets, then you can just not do it. If your heroes arrest helpless villains rather than kill them, if your villains do comic-book style captures and deathtraps and so on rather than immediately killing off heroes, then Transform is just another way to render someone temporarily helpless, and reasonably priced.