M&M: The first problem

[Andrew D. Gable]

And of course my powergaming players pointed it out.

The combination of Energy Control (magnetism) and Transmutation. This could allow them to overcome ANY challenge I set before them, as the offender can simply be targeted with Transmutation, turned into metal, and then manipulated by the magnetic guy. I'm considering actually banning this combination.

Considering it works that way. I may be jumping to conclusions though.

 

[whydirt]

How is that any more powerful than straight Telekinesis?

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

I guess on second glance it's really not, lol.

 

[Hammerhead]

Real Problems with M&M

Case #1: "Booster"
Boost +9 [Extras: All Mutant Powers, Increased Duration: Concentration, Increased Duration: Sustained, Increased Duration: Continuous] Total Cost 54 pts.

Then, proceed to buy tons of powers: Strike, Forcefield, Amazing Save, Energy Blast, Telekinesis, Teleport, Flight, Incorporeal at 1 rank each.

Case #2 Duplication/Animation to create tons of powerful characters at relatively low cost, points wise.

Case #3: Sorcery allows one to get tons of cool powers for a really low cost. Not really broken, but still really good.

 

[Insight]

Re: Real Problems with M&M

Case #1: "Booster"
Boost +9 [Extras: All Mutant Powers, Increased Duration: Concentration, Increased Duration: Sustained, Increased Duration: Continuous] Total Cost 54 pts.

Then, proceed to buy tons of powers: Strike, Forcefield, Amazing Save, Energy Blast, Telekinesis, Teleport, Flight, Incorporeal at 1 rank each.

Part of any game system is the GM.

In a case like this, when it's obvious the player is a pure power-gamer, the GM has to step in and use his/her veto power. First off, increasing duration more than one step should always be subject to GM approval. Secondly, since Boost is a power that is supposed to drain away (like Drain and Transfer), I would disallow Extras that change that mechanic with the exception of those hard-coded into the rules, such as Slow Recovery.

There's no way I would allow this power built in this manner when it's obviously just a points-grab.

Case #2 Duplication/Animation to create tons of powerful characters at relatively low cost, points wise.

Duplicates are Minions, so they are less effective than the base character, and their ability bonuses and power ranks are limited by the base character's ranks in Duplication, so they are very costly (if you want to have effective ones), not to mention a headache for the GM and the other players as you move 11 guys around the board each round.

Animation is effective, but adding an additional object costs one Extra each, so I'm not sure you could get 'lots' of them without paying a stiff price. Like Duplication, Animated objects' abilities are limited by the ranks in Animation, so again, you're talking about putting a lot of points into the base power.

Case #3: Sorcery allows one to get tons of cool powers for a really low cost. Not really broken, but still really good.

Sorcery's cost is little different from purchasing the powers separately. Since similar items are Power Stunts, that's how you would buy them anyway, so I don't see a big difference there. In fact, you could create a power using the power creation rules that would be very similar to Sorcery.

I don't really see how any of these are 'broken' if you really know how to apply the rules. As I said, any game system like this requires a GM with veto power.

 

[Petrosian]

Yup... there is a real reason why boost does not have the "slow fade" and why that extra is power specific to those powers where its not abusive.

 

[Hammerhead]

Obviously, you have to use DM approval. Nothing is 'Broken' with proper DM oversight, because a good DM would disallow anything that is unbalanced. But if that's so, why are there millions of threads decrying everything from clerics to monks, two-weapon fighting to prestige classes, dwarves to half-elves. Many people have a wide opinion about what is broken. But I'd like to point out that these are legal without DM intervention.

My example actually applies to using Duplication and Animation together to create armies of powerful characters. Another method is to use Duplicaton with Extra: Increased Range, to Duplicate your teammates as well.

Another really cheesy thing is to use Mimic to mimic all of your teammates powers or whatever before beginning a mission, so as to gain tons of cool powers.

A superspeedster with high strength and armor can deal out insane ramming attacks. A PL 12 supervillain of mine dealt out a DC 39 Ramming Attack to a PC.

Incorporeal has been mentioned as a 'problem power,' as well.

The problem with Sorcery is that it allows one access to almost every power for a relatively low cost. It's not broken, but I'd say its more powerful than nearly any other power.

 

[Insight]

Obviously, you have to use DM approval. Nothing is 'Broken' with proper DM oversight, because a good DM would disallow anything that is unbalanced. But if that's so, why are there millions of threads decrying everything from clerics to monks, two-weapon fighting to prestige classes, dwarves to half-elves. Many people have a wide opinion about what is broken. But I'd like to point out that these are legal without DM intervention.

My example actually applies to using Duplication and Animation together to create armies of powerful characters. Another method is to use Duplicaton with Extra: Increased Range, to Duplicate your teammates as well.

Another really cheesy thing is to use Mimic to mimic all of your teammates powers or whatever before beginning a mission, so as to gain tons of cool powers.

I'm not sure this is a huge deal, but I would view it with skepticism. After all, a character can only make one attack (maybe two) per round, so what difference does it make if he/she has seven different Energy Blasts?

PL Stacking applies here too. Also, a lot of characters duplicate each others' powers, so Mimicking 3 characters with Super-Strength of Force Field isn't going to net you a whole lot.

A superspeedster with high strength and armor can deal out insane ramming attacks. A PL 12 supervillain of mine dealt out a DC 39 Ramming Attack to a PC.

Yeah, I did that to a GM's villain one time. First round of combat, before the villain could even act. Knocked him out of the combat completely.

With Ramming, however, make sure that the rammer makes a Damage save too. That's part of the rules that some people forget. And no, you can't use Evasion against that damage either!

Incorporeal has been mentioned as a 'problem power,' as well.

I have to agree here. The GM really has to put his/her foot down in terms of what can affect the Incorporeal character. Otherwise, he/she has to make NPCs with Ghost Touch just so that the Incorp character is challenged.

 

[DanMcS]

For incorporeal, it's a good fix to say "the incorporeal guy is vulnerable to one of melee, ranged (I mean weapons), or energy attacks while incorporeal", instead of just one type of energy attack. If an incorporeal guy is vulnerable only to electricity, you'll end up with a shocking villain in every adventure, but if he's vulnerable to energy blasts, many types of villains will be able to hurt him.

 

[Ranger REG]

And of course my powergaming players pointed it out.

The combination of Energy Control (magnetism) and Transmutation. This could allow them to overcome ANY challenge I set before them, as the offender can simply be targeted with Transmutation, turned into metal, and then manipulated by the magnetic guy. I'm considering actually banning this combination.

If I read this right, I believe you are referring to Transformation, not Transmutation. You can use Transmutation on NONLIVING solids and liquids only.

In this case, the victim of Transformation can resist by making a successful saving throw.