Mage Armor and Ethereal opponents

[orion90000]

This has probably been asked before, if so I'm sorry for the repeat.

My question: If a monk drinks a potion of "Mage Armor" would this allow him to strike an ethereal opponent as though "Ghost Touch"?

Something not specified by Mage Armor is the shape of the armor. Is it an egg shaped force field that surrounds him or do it outline the character? I lean towards the later in that the character sould also be hindered trying to attack through the force field if it were an egg shape.

Thus if a character is outlined by a force field, then his unarmed strike should be treated as a force effect.

Does anyone see a flaw in this thinking?

 

[Jhaelen]

Thus if a character is outlined by a force field, then his unarmed strike should be treated as a force effect.

Does anyone see a flaw in this thinking?

Yes, I do. It's not supported by the rules.

Would an unarmed attack be considered adamantine if the character is wearing an adamantine breastplate?

Again, the answer is nope.

It doesn't really matter in answering the question, but, in my game mage armor looks exactly like a breastplate armor (at least to those who can see invisible).

 

[Empirate]

First of all, you gotta be able to see ethereal opponents to be able to hit them much - this is already tricky.

Mage Armor gives an armor bonus. If it allowed you to make Ghost Touch unarmed strikes, it would say so in the spell description. You know what? It doesn't.
Also, like Jhaelen said, Mage Armor isn't really described as a "force field covering your entire body". Would be hard to breathe, I think. No, it provides a +4 armor bonus, much like a chain shirt. It would be reasonable to assume it covered the same areas as a chain shirt then!

 

[PolterGhost]

I dunno about your games, but using Mage Armor like that seems a little cheap, if not extremely clever.

In my games, Mage Armor creates a near-invisible field of air that floats around the target. Whenever an attack is aimed at the user, the air condenses into a visible white patch that absorbs the blow as it comes, essentially slowing the weapon to a point where it falls helplessly or doesn't have enough force to do real damage to the target. Of course, if you strike with enough force to pass through the air, you have enough force to swing through a +4 armor bonus as well, so it doesn't end up stacking with armor.

Different from deflection in that I treat deflection as the attack being mystically guided away from the target, like an arrow's direction being bent as if by a strong gust.

 

[orion90000]

#1 if the breastplate came with gauntlets (which it doesn't) then an adamantine breastplate would come with adamantine gauntlets that would provide adamantine to its unarmed attack.

And apparently I put ethereal opponents instead of incorporeal opponents (shadows, allips, etc). Sorry about that.

#2 "An invisible but tangible field of force surrounds the subject of a mage armor spell." Sounds to me like it "surrounds" the wearer like a force field and not like a chain shirt

 

[bobhayes]

A clever interpretation, but no. The force field provides an armor bonus to the subject; it doesn't change the nature of the subject's weapons, or provide any other benefit not spelled out in the description.

 

[orion90000]

A clever interpretation, but no. The force field provides an armor bonus to the subject; it doesn't change the nature of the subject's weapons, or provide any other benefit not spelled out in the description.

I didn't say that Mage Armor effected a held weapon, just that it would overlap the beneficiary's hands just as a gauntlet would...

From the description of incorporeal subtype: "Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons)."

And from Mage Armor: "Since mage armor is made of force, incorporeal creatures can’t bypass it the way they do normal armor."

The only interpretation I'm making is that Mage Armor surrounds (as in outlines) the beneficiary in such the same way as Full Plate surrounds its wearer. As I've argued above, if you bought adamantine armor that came with gauntlets, the gauntlets would also be adamantine - which could be used to overcome adamantine DR. How is this not comparable with armor that is made out of force, in that it translates the same innate property to the hands of the beneficiary?

 

[bobhayes]

It's made of force, but isn't a force effect. You can't hit a ghost on the head with a (portable) wall of force, either. Though I suppose that's an interpretation as well.

On the technicalities, you may be right. On the game balance side, no. It's a 1st level spell, and 1st level spells aren't going to emulate a 5th-level spell effect (ghost touch).

If I was your DM and you insisted I explain why it didn't work, I would say that the kinetic energy of your hand, sheathed in force though it is, isn't the equivalent of a magic missile which is pure force. The DAMAGE you cause with your hand comes from kinetic energy; that kinetic energy is what the incorporeal creature can phase around.

 

[orion90000]

It's made of force, but isn't a force effect. You can't hit a ghost on the head with a (portable) wall of force, either. Though I suppose that's an interpretation as well.

On the technicalities, you may be right. On the game balance side, no. It's a 1st level spell, and 1st level spells aren't going to emulate a 5th-level spell effect (ghost touch).

If I was your DM and you insisted I explain why it didn't work, I would say that the kinetic energy of your hand, sheathed in force though it is, isn't the equivalent of a magic missile which is pure force. The DAMAGE you cause with your hand comes from kinetic energy; that kinetic energy is what the incorporeal creature can phase around.

I'm sorry, I don't see a balance issue. Ghost Touch is only a +1 add on for a weapon, so is Defending; which uses a first level spell (Shield or Shield of Faith) for it's prerequisite {yes I'm aware of the absurd prereq for Ghost Touch}. And again, its an "unarmed strike" which a majority of PC will entail an AOO for trying unless they are a monk or have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. I see this as more of a last desperate attempt on a fighter's behalf than overpowering.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

orion90000, I can pretty much promise that if you and your DM decide to play mage armor the way you'd like to, nobody here is going to report you to the D&DPD.

But certain areas of the rules are fleshed out pretty well, and unarmed combat and combat effects of spells are two of those areas. It is generally a mistake to rely on fluff to make decisions regarding well-detailed rules subsystems, which is what you're doing here.

FWIW, I agree with the consensus that mage armor has no effect on unarmed combat, beyond providing a +4 armor bonus (even versus incorporeal opponents).