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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Balesir" data-source="post: 6290832" data-attributes="member: 27160">On top of good points by [MENTION=27570]sheadunne[/MENTION] and [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION], characters in any RPG are imaginary. They will carry on adventuring under an abusive boss, living in a cardboard box in t' middle o't' road and licking t' road clean wi't' tongue, if that's what the players decide they will do. They don't really exist!OK, but the reward to the player is not the same as that to the character. The player does not get a literal, physical sword of any kind - never mind a magical one. They get the approbation of their peers for a job well done, maybe, and perhaps a feeling analogous to that experienced when a sports team they support wins a match or a trophy or similar; the thrill of having a favoured protege succeed.The actual magic item, it seems to me, is not really the reward - it is just an in-game token that marks the reward. As such, its form is incidental. You could as well award characters medals or stars in the game and they would perform the same function - and they are not, themselves, the rewards. They are merely attempts, we might say, by the GM to signal that approbation (reward) is appropriate. If used in this way, it seems to me that (a) we are conflating two purposes: that of character enhancement and that of reward signalling, and (b) we are assigning a role of "reward signalling" to the GM that I think is not neccessarily best allocated there. If the real reward is the approbation of your peers, are those peers not the best ones to judge when such a reward is or is not appropriate?No. I am saying that if you consider purely imaginary things to be "rewards" then you might readily buy many such rewards, possibly quite cheaply and to no great benefit to yourself.But, as I have explained above, I actually doubt very much that those who like other play styles really are so gullible as to consider the purely imaginary objects of play "rewards", as such. Rather, they stand as signals or proxies for such entirely human and valid rewards as praise and admiration within the group. I can not imagine anyone genuinely thinking themselves a better person for "having a magic sword", but I can imagine them being pleased that they played well (in whatever style pleases them) and this was recognised by their friends. The magic sword might be an in-game symbol of that success and recognition, but I would argue that it is not really required in that role.Yes, I can see that scenario, but let me pose a question: do you think that "prize" could not be a piece of in-game knowledge? Or access to a protected area in the imagined world? Or reputation or prestige in the game world?In other words, yes, a magic item might be used in this role, but there is nothing requiring the prize to be a magic item. Add to this that, as [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] has said, this is not generally how the majority of magic items are gained, and I think what this amounts to is a challenge for the players/characters, the overcoming of which is a goal and a reward in itself. The fact that it is also the vector for acquiring a magic item - which generally are acquired along with challenges overcome and hence also experience - is actually incidental.I agree with this and your earlier comments on magic items as "build" components; I would just add two observations:1) As I have said elsewhere, I think 4E's split of magic objects into "magic items" (can be bought and sold, made by PCs and are essentially "build" components) and "artifacts" (cannot be bought or made by PCs, are purely GM artifacts (sic) to be used as rewards, plot devices or whatever) is superb from this point of view. It covers both of your bases and, regardless of how you feel about the rest of 4E's systems, I think this recommends itself for adoption into whatever edition of D&D you favour. By simply setting the frequency and availability of the two types of object this scheme can cater to a wide range of preferences, from artifact-only (all magic items are GM purview only) to enchanted item only (magic items are player-controlled within the resources they acquire).2) Like you, I like magic items as character "build" elements, but I would point out that they are different in an important respect from other such elements. Magic items that can be bought or made are actually party build elements. They represent a power-up that the players can discuss in character and decide upon what elements to "pick" in order to strengthen the whole party, not just one character. As such, they promote an element of teamwork in character building/development, complementary but quite different from the teamwork in play that is promoted by character classes.</blockquote>

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