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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5348549" data-attributes="member: 82106">No, what is wrong with it is that I CAN'T EVEN CONTEMPLATE making a scenario like the one being discussed in 3.x. It isn't that it is such a terrible thing if in some situation PCs can shortcut a big chunk of adventure, as long as the DM doesn't mind leaving a lot of work on the cutting room floor at least. The problem is that with earlier versions of D&D VAST amounts of possible plots and stories were just out of bounds because the PCs could trivially bypass them. What you COULD run was limited to only certain types of layouts. Note that I have played with the same players pretty much since 1981, they are very clever people. There is ZERO chance that if there was ANY way of bypassing or trivializing an encounter or entire adventure they wouldn't find it and use it. In order to challenge this kind of player the DM has to go to stupidly ridiculous lengths and even so it is 5 brains against one, they'll find a way every time. Magic in AD&D/3.x was just too generalized and open-ended.With 4e things are a lot better. The players feel more challenged, the game runs more smoothly and we can actually play out things like a kidnapping or a murder mystery without needing 27 anti-magic zones and making up unlikely reasons why this and that spell won't just solve the whole thing.Nah. Go back and play AD&D a bit. There was no such thing as crafting. You had to be level 7 to even make a potion or a scroll. You had to be level 13 to make ANY other kind of item and even the most trivial permanent item like a +1 sword required a Permanency spell that was a level 7 spell (meaning you had to be 13th level to cast it). MANY items effectively required a character to be 15th or 17th level for access to 8th and 9th level spells. Even then the really potent items were simply uncraftable. Players still found ways to be clever and work around adventures. They may not have been crafting items to do it (sometimes that did come up) but they still found plenty of clever ways. At low levels it usually involved creative use of equipment, nonstandard ways of using certain spells, social engineering, creative tactics, etc. I think 4e has that AND a bit more of a limit on what magic items you can use. In your troll scenario for example the players in my game might have for instance dug a pit or two somewhere, filled it halfway with oil soaked brush, and baited the trolls into attacking them in a spot where they could push them into the pit and burn them up. I'd consider that a lot more creative than "lets craft a bunch of fire weapons". Crafting the weapons is OK, but it doesn't reach to the high levels of creative problem solving. I think what the new 4e situation is trying to do is cut a middle ground. Maybe the players CAN acquire some items that help them, but they may have to work at it a bit more. Maybe they need to go find an Azer that can make flaming swords and bring him a special item he wants in payment, etc. OTOH if the DM is OK with the players having a fairly obvious way to solve the problem he can let them have some special ingredient that lets them craft flaming swords.</blockquote>

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