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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PrecociousApprentice" data-source="post: 4376549" data-attributes="member: 61449">You see, this does not fix the problem that is being claimed. The frost/falming/lightning weapons can abuse the wintertouched/lasting frost combo every attack. It is at will. So the meleers are left with what many consider to be a huge rules loophole, and casters are not. The implements are supposed to be the arcane equivalent to a melee weapon. They function in basicaly the same way mechanically. Allowing the meleers to use this loophole but not casters is plain stupid. Adding wands that have the At-Wills of the elemental weapons just bring us basically back to what many of the people that objected to the RAW disiked about the whole thing.So by this rule, a rogue can spam the wintertouched/lasting frost combo with his trusty frost rapier every attack he makes, as long as he uses a class or racial power and the frost at-will is on. Combat advantage every round and the enemy has vulnerability to cold 5, so 5 extra damage per hit. He can do this with any of his class or racial powers, so we have [SBLOCK=Riposte Strike]Riposte Strike Rogue Attack 1 At-Will - Martial, Weapon, Cold Standard Action Melee weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade. Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. If the target attacks you before the start of your next turn, you make your riposte against the target as an immediate interrupt: a Strength vs. AC attack that deals 1[W] + Strength modifier damage. Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier and riposte to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.[/SBLOCK]Moderate damage at-will that can be spammed every round, and likely maintains sneak attack damage every round. Up to two attacks, granting combat advantage, both do an extra 5 damage because the foe has vulnerability to cold 5. All damage is cold. This is OK by the text, and can be repeated ad nausiem.[SBLOCK=Cloud of Steel]Cloud of Steel Rogue Attack 7  Encounter - Martial, Weapon, coldStandard Action Close blast 5 Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light thrown weapon, or a sling. Target: Each enemy in blast you can see Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Miss: Half damage, and no ongoing damage. [/SBLOCK]Area of effect for moderate damage, and probably some sneak attack damage added in. Every enemy within 5 square can be attacked, all damage is cold, they are given vulnerability to cold, you get combat advantage against them next turn, and the cycle can be repeated on any that you continue to attack the next round. OK by the ruling. [SBLOCK=Snake's Retreat]Snake’s Retreat Rogue Attack 19 Daily - Martial, Weapon, coldStandard Action Melee or Ranged weapon Requirement: You must be wielding a crossbow, a light blade, or a sling. Target: One creature Attack: Dexterity vs. AC Hit: 6[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. Effect: When the target makes a melee attack or a ranged attack against you, you can shift 1 square as an immediate interrupt. The target can make a saving throw to end this effect. [/SBLOCK]Large damage, made larger by automatic sneak attack damage. Attack and move out of enemies way, do cold damage, give vulnerability to cold 5, get combat advantage next turn. Just fine by ruling. [SBLOCK=Eldritch Blast]Eldritch Blast Warlock (All) Attack 1 At-Will - Arcane, Implement, Cold Standard Action Ranged 10 Target: One creature Attack: Charisma or Constitution vs. Reflex Hit: 1d10 + Charisma or Constitution modifier damage. Increase damage to 2d10 + Charisma or Constitution modifier at 21st level. Special: At 1st level. you determine whether you use Cha- risma or Constitution to attack with this power. Once you make that choice, you can’t change it later. This power counts as a ranged basic attack. When a power allows you to make a ranged basic attack, you can use this power. [/SBLOCK]Moderate damage, doesn't interact with curse, but can be spammed. You cannot do this by the ruling. If you could, it would give combat advantage with wintertouched, but not to the advantage that the rogue gets. Vulnerability to cold 5 is good, but ruling says no. [SBLOCK=Fire Burst]Fire Burst Wizard Attack 7 Encounter - Arcane, Fire, Implement, coldStandard Action Area burst 2 within 20 squares Target: Each creature in burst Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage. [/SBLOCK]Area of effect for moderate damage, but combat advantage doesn't add a great deal. Can't do this by ruling either. Why is it possible to do cold with a weapon, but not do cold and fire with a magical spell? I see no reason that this should be limited. Still, the lasting frost/wintertouched feat combo looks good with this, but definitely not to the degree to which the rogue can take advantage of this. Casters get the suck, meleers get a huge boost.[SBLOCK=Disintegrate]Disintegrate Wizard Attack 19 Daily - Arcane, Implement, coldStandard Action Ranged 10 Target: One creature or object Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex Special: You don’t need to make an attack roll to hit an unattended object with this power. Hit: 5d10 + Intelligence modifier damage, and ongoing 10 damage (save ends). If the target saves, it takes ongoing 5 damage (save ends). Miss: 3d10 + Intelligence modifier damage, and ongoing 5 damage (save ends). [/SBLOCK]Single target big damage. no interaction with combat advantage, so no extra dice. Making this cold doesn't do much except enable the wintertouched/lasting frost combo. This is not allowable under the FAQ ruling. Why no cold disintigrate combo?Seems to me like the things that people were calling cheese are still in, but the casters just don't get to do them. Rip off. I didn't try to find any game breaking combos for either set of powers. I just wanted to show a few legitimate uses of the ruling, and compare to some that are not allowed. The ones that are not allowed are not any more powerful than the allowable ones. In fact, besides the Doomsayer, I think that the rogue would get the most out of keyword inheritance, and they get that with the current nerfed ruling.I have never claimed that the Doomsayer was perfectly ballanced. In fact, I have stated that any mechanic that allows or requires multiple rolls will disrupt the math of the game. That is not the fault of the keyword inheritance. That is it's own issue, and will not be solved by limiting keyword inheritance to meleers. As it stands, some of the most powerful mechanics in the game include a double roll (twin strike - ranger, foresight and terrifying insight - divine oracle, elven accuracy - elf, doomsayers proclamation - doomsayer). The keyword inheritance only interacts with two of these, and one get's it with the current ruling. It just strikes me as stupid to limit this to weapon using classes, and say that a magical change in effect and damage is OK with weapons, while a magical change in effect and damage is game breaking/bad fluff for implements. Why can't spells be manipulated with magic, when combat techniques can?This change in rule doesn't eliminate any cheese, doesn't fix any of the potentially broken aspects of the system, favors a certain subset of options and increases the necessity of system mastery, doesn't improve fluff, and makes it obvious that the rulebooks were badly edited. What is WotC's motivation?</blockquote>

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