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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kinematics" data-source="post: 8342617" data-attributes="member: 6932123">Consumables vs Non-consumablesWhat is the relative value of a consumable vs a non-consumable? Potions and scrolls vs rings and cloaks and swords?[common] potions:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potion of Healing (50): heal 2d4+2 HP</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potion of Climbing (75): 1 hour of climb speed equal to walking speed, and advantage on athletic checks to climb</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Vial of Beauty (60): New item, unknown effect. Guess: Advantage on charisma checks</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fizzy Lifter (85): New item, unknown effect. Guess: Gain "Levitate" effect.</li> </ul>Beyond this, you have [uncommon] potions costing mostly between 150 and 350, [rare] costing mostly between 500 and 1000, and [very rare] costing between 5000 and 7000.For the most part, the prices are at the bottom end of the rarity bands.We can look at various comparisons between consumable and permanent versions of various effects:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potion of Climbing (75) vs Gloves of Swimming and Climbing (300, attunement) vs Rope of Climbing (500)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potion of Water Breathing (150, 1 hr) vs Cap of Water Breathing (unlisted)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potion of Water Breathing (150, 1 hr) vs Cloak of the Manta Ray (400, 60' swim speed)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scroll: Water Breathing [3rd level] (175, 10 people for 24 hours) vs Potion of Water Breathing (150, 1 person for 1 hour)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Fizzy Lifter (85, guessing) vs Boots of Levitation (750, 3/day, attunement)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potion of Hill Giant Strength (300) vs Belt of Hill Giant Strength (4000, attunement)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potion of Flying (7000) vs Winged Boots (1500, attunement)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Potion of Resistance (250, 1 hr vs 1 element) vs Ring of Resistance (750, 1 element, attunement) vs Ring of Warmth (500, resist cold, attunement)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scroll: Gust of Wind [2nd level] (75, concentration) vs Wind Fan (450, 1/day)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scroll: Enlarge/Reduce [2nd level, 1 minute] (75) vs Potion of Growth (1d4 hours, 350) vs Potion of Diminution (1d4 hours, 550)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scroll: Clairvoyance [3rd level] (175) vs Potion of Clairvoyance (1000)</li> </ul>Was reminded that there are advantages to potions over scrolls.  To use a scroll, the spell has to be on your class's spell list, and an additional check has to be made if the spell's level is higher than you can cast. That restriction doesn't apply to potions, as far as I can tell.So, for example, a spell scroll for Clairvoyance could be cast by most full casters (with limitations on Warlock), but not any half-casters or martials (barring feats or multiclassing).  Meanwhile, a Potion of Clairvoyance could be used by anyone.  So in that case there's a notable reason for the difference in pricing, but the degree of difference seems a bit extreme.The Enlarge/Reduce potions have vastly greater durations, and no concentration required, so a moderate degree of upscaling is expected.  Clairvoyance only has the general benefit of allowing anyone to use it, but otherwise acts the same as the scroll. As such, the potion should not cost that much. I'd probably cut the price in half.For the unattuned item (Wind Fan), it has a similar scaling relative to the scroll: 6x.Then, looking at potions vs permanent equipment, we have wildly varying values.  Almost all the comparisons I have are vs attunable equipment, so that part of the comparison should remain constant.The most direct comparison we have is the potion of giant strength vs the belt of equivalent giant strength. It's a 1 hour duration vs a permanent.  While a multiplier isn't the best comparator, they are mostly in the range of 10x.On the other end, we have the potion of climbing vs the gloves of swimming and climbing (granting a boost to more than the potion provides), with a ratio of only 4x (75 to 300).  Also, the rings of resistance are only 2x to 3x the potion cost, though in that case the issue is how often any given resistance will be useful.  Resistance as a bonus effect on a more useful item tends to be where people would choose the attunement slot to spend (eg: Frost Brand, various staffs, etc).Clearly the difference in pricing comes down to the competitive value of the attunement slot.  A belt of giant strength will almost always be a top choice for an attunement slot because it will always be useful, while climbing/swimming checks are relatively rare, and the gloves will easily be replaced over time since the potion is such an easy replacement.This leads to an overview indicating that permanent (attuned) items will tend to range between 4x and 12x of the potion version of that same effect, depending on how desirable and frequently required the effect is. At the same time, potions tend to be about 6x as expensive as the equivalent scrolls because the scrolls are more limited in use.Still, is it proper to consider it as if the potions were correctly priced and that the permanents were at a low scale, or that the permanents were correctly priced and the potions were overpriced?For example, the Cloak of the Manta Ray is cheap (400), and seems to be a reasonable price for what it does. Is it cheap because it doesn't need a high scaling (less than x3)? Or is the potion overpriced? Well, also consider that the scroll costs almost the same price as the potion (175 vs 150), but covers up to 10 people for 24 hours instead of 1 person for 1 hour. Even allowing for scrolls' limitations, I'd say the potion is way overpriced.Also, let's go back and look at potions of healing.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scroll of Cure Wounds [1st level] (25) vs Potion of Healing (50)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scroll of Cure Wounds [2nd level] (75) vs Potion of Greater Healing (150)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Scroll of Cure Wounds [4th level] (500) vs Potion of Superior Healing (550)</li> </ul>1st and 2nd level scrolls of Cure Wounds would heal almost as much as the comparable potion while costing half as much, though the 4th level version is a fair bit weaker than the equivalent potion (a 5th level version would be more comparable), while costing nearly the same.Though, as usual, the potions are something anyone can use, while the scrolls are more limited.  Probably more worthwhile for a 1st level cleric to carry a couple scrolls of cure wounds, rather than a potion, though. And finally, the Potion of Flying, at 7000 GP, is ridiculously overpriced compared to a slew of other options for the same effect.  It does last an hour, though, compared to 10 minutes for the scroll (which costs 175 each, so 1050 for an hour's worth), and the scroll version requires concentration.So it doesn't need the concentration required of the scrolls, or the attunement required of the permanent items, so that inflates the price some, but asSummary Notes:Listing for the Cap of Water Breathing is missing.Potion of Water Breathing is overpriced. Probably should be about 50.Potion of Flying is way overpriced. Probably should be about 2000.Potion of Clairvoyance is likely overpriced. Would probably drop it to 350-500.Consumables should be convenient solutions to one-off problems, while permanent items are more of investments for commonly encountered needs.  Prices should have sufficient separation to encourage those different approaches to spending.Overall, I'd start potions off at 2x the price of the equivalent scroll, if that's directly applicable.  They allow anyone to use the spell effect, usually without concentration. That's worth a modest increase in price.  If the potion gives additional benefits (such as longer duration), it may be worth bumping the price up a bit more, but there might also be circumstances where the potion is less valuable than the scroll (eg: Water Breathing).Then scaling from potions to permanent items, I'd look at a range of 4x to 12x, depending on how commonly useful the effect is. Anything at the low end may indicate that the potion is overpriced, though.In some cases, this spread of pricing isn't possible.  Flying, for example, goes from 1050 for an hours' worth of scrolls to 1500 for an hours' worth of boots, which doesn't leave much room to fit in a potion, particularly at any of the above scaling rates.  On the other hand, factoring in concentration and attunement gives the potion its own particular value, so it can be outside the other items' range.</blockquote>

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