Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 296472" data-attributes="member: 2011">That is total BS.We could take a poll here and maybe one player of a Sorcerer out of fifty might actually take GMW if it fit his character conception, but it would be rare. There are just too many better third level spells for Sorcerers to take, both in core rules and in supplements. The other reason that GMW is typically a poor choice for Sorcerers is that they can be metamagic specialists and the only useful metamagic that stacks with GMW is Extend Spell.You have GOT to be kidding. Yes, in a situation where players are expecting a DR encounter, sure the Wizard might study it.But, on a re-occurring basis? Our players are too smart for that.GMW is more a specific situation spell than a general use spell unless your players are lazy and get into a rut.The DC for most 9th level Wizards on the spell is a minimum of 16. Most 9th level opponents would have less than a 50% chance of saving on that. Assuming 50%, that's an average of 21 points of damage per opponent in the area of effect. Since this tactic is generally only useful in the first round or so when opponents have yet to close, that means that typically, several opponents are damaged either 15 or 31 points on average. 9th level challenges tend to have an average of about 60 hit points, so assuming that you hit two thirds of your opponents with the spell, a third of your opponents are half damaged in round one and another third are quarter damaged. You wouldn't use this spell if you could not get multiple opponents in the blast.As compared to maybe 33 extra points of damage (to be totally fair, you have to realize that not all 15 shots will hit, maybe 75% will hit typically, just like maybe 50% of opponents will make their saves) spread over multiple opponents over 5 rounds over what the archer would have done anyway? Plus, the archer often wastes damage. An opponent with 2 hit points remaining taking 12 or more points (assuming your example of +3 arrows, Bracers of Archer, Weapon Specialization, probably Point Blank range, and possibly a Mighty Bow). The extra +3 damage from the arrows does not really help there. Fireballs tend to be cast early on and none of the damage is wasted.The important point here is that the Wizard shifts the battle towards victory in round one. The archer slowly but surely finishes it. The Fireball for the Wizard does as much damage in one round against one opponent than the GMW does for the archer does over all of his opponents over the course of the entire battle. This means that with the Fireball, more opponents fall earlier in earlier rounds which results in the battle taking fewer rounds, the party taking less damage, and the resultant healing requirements being less.All in all, Fireball when you can use it, kicks butt big time over GMW.And, this is not even talking about the Slow spell. I've seen Slow virtually decimate the fighting capacity of a Dragon several times in 3E.Or the Haste spell cast on that same archer, or the Wizard, or a Fighter with Greater Cleave. Haste on a Fighter tends to give him Full Round Attacks every single round and most melee feats are superior than ranged missile feats.Well, then you are thinking incorrectly. GMW is a fine tactic, but one of the best? Not even close.Even firing and hitting with all 50 arrows (which won't happen) at 9th level only results in 150 extra points of damage. I've seen Fireballs do that much (rarely, but it happens). But, I suspect that most of the arrows are still in the quiver most days. If not, then your archers are going through 50 arrows a day and must be carrying around bags of holding, just to pull out their crates of arrows.Actually, two of the players in our current group are some of the best tacticians I've ever played with in 24 years of playing DND. I cannot even remember the number of times they have turned a losing battle into a victory or saved the entire party from nearly certain death. It sometimes gets really tough to even challenge them. They are always prepared. My latest attempt at challenging them was to portal them into a place where only their magical items (except their bag of holding) and anything touching their skin showed up. So, they are 8th level in a different dimension designed for 10th to 12th level characters and they are holding their own, even though they lost nearly all of their mundane items (including arrows). Losing their arrows sounds like it might cripple your group, psychologically if not actually.GMW is not great. It is ok. It can be absolutely required in some circumstances. But at 10th and lower levels, it will hardly be taken every day in most groups. The only reasons it might be taken at higher levels is because GMW is more potent at higher levels and casters at higher levels tend to have more spell slots available, hence, they have more flexibility with their spells.But, it's real simple SR. Ask the people here on the boards how often their players use GMW and what level their characters are. Put up a poll and let's find out.Then, you are not challenging them as a DM.In my campaign, our 8th level characters never take GMW (of course, I have a house rule that MW can be cast on 10 arrows, but it is rare that they do that). But, just on Saturday, they took on a 12th level Sorcerer with Stoneskin and Minor Globe of Invulnerability and kicked his butt, even though he was throwing spells like Web (before he put up the Globe) and Heightened Empowered Lightning Bolt (which averages 50 points of damage against characters with 40 to 70 hit points). This was after they had about two thirds of their spells gone and no fourth level spells left and most of the characters were partially damaged already.As seen time and time again, good tactics do not rely on specific spells.I think you are too caught up in a tactic your group has latched on to, regardless of how good other tactics may be. Yes, your group may do it. But, I doubt most groups do it on a steady basis until they get to higher levels. Yes, pumping up your allies is often a good choice, but one Dispel Magic can wipe that out quick. Most groups learn that the hard way.No single spell or tactic is the be all, end all. And, using GMW is nowhere near a great tactic in a lot of circumstances. Don't get me wrong. It's a good spell, especially at higher level. But, at 5th level, it is +1. At 8th, it is +2. It can help, but there are other third level spells which can help more since the result of GMW is a little extra damage most rounds, not a boatload of damage or the taking out of an opponent in a single round early on.It is a slow acting spell which means that although it can do damage for a long time, it also does not quickly kill opponents which allows them to counterattack.But, like I said, to support your position, put up a poll asking frequency and levels.</blockquote>

Verification