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Message: <blockquote data-quote="wingsandsword" data-source="post: 2278337" data-attributes="member: 14159">I always thought it was a little contradictory, possibly even hypocritical, that back in the AD&D era they always said that all magic items are rare, special, valuable and nobody would ever, ever sell or trade them.  The 2e High Level Campaigns book was very preachy about it and said a game would become a joke or farce if players could buy magic items.Now, if magic items were all that rare, I could see that, but they never were.  A 1st level adventurer could go into a nearby dungeon and knock some orc upside his head and take his +1 Longsword, and bring a few friends along with him to gear up.  Even in a by-the-book module, with some smart playing and good dice luck you could be bringing out practically a wagonload of magic items.  Of course, magic items were supposed to be hard to make, only craftable by high level and highly experienced wizards (well, technically clerics too, but that wasn't talked about as much), and each one was expensive, unique and time consuming, and the Permanency spell would suck the Constitution right out of you too!  A lot of ancient wizards had to really give up a lot to make all these +1 hand axes and +1 shields lying around waiting to be found.Magic items couldn't be all that rare, the system really wasn't designed for it.  Remember, monsters didn't have nice new Damage Reduction where you could hurt them with normal weapons if you hit hard enough, they were outright immune.  An entire army of well trained knights with weapon specialization hacking away with mundane greatswords at a single wight won't stop it, but one single magic dagger could bring it down.  Lots of common creatures assumed you not only had magic weapons, but ones with lots of plusses.  All 3e did was to admit it and say that if items were that common, they had to be a little easier to make (especially scrolls and potions) and that if items were that easy to make and that common, there would be a market for them among the rich and powerful (which experienced adventurers count as).Oh, and about item saves.  Back in the AD&D days, the DM's I played under enforced that rule, but a standard PC response was the development of the Adventurer's Pack, a backpack with a forged steel plating on the inside, reenforced (to protect against crushing blows), with watertight rubber gaskets, well padded with cotton on the inside.  I don't recall the entire plan off the top of my head, but it was designed to have a layer that had each of the best item saves for a category, was watertight, and could be worn as a backpack, and they were used to carry spellbooks, potions, scrolls, and other fragile items the PC's had.  The DM's usually required PC's to make it themselves (and thus someone would have to buy some craft oriented NWP's) except in high-powered games where it was presumed somebody else had come up with them and they were available as high-end specialty gear.  They were always very expensive because all the special skills and elaborate steps taken, but they paid for themselves in made item saves after one adventure.  If somebody had a bag of holding, it so went in there immediately to multiply the space inside.</blockquote>

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