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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cerebral Paladin" data-source="post: 5571210" data-attributes="member: 3448">Dr_Ruminahui:  You're clearly right that at very low levels, the assumptions about what bonuses characters will have based on my calculations don't work.  As you said, PCs don't start with a level 2 item, a level 1 item, a level 0(?) item, and some cash, which is what they would need to in order for the pattern to work cleanly across all levels.  Instead, they start with no magic items, which means that there is a period of catching up to the average.  If you're doing an inherent bonus approach, it makes sense to not have the +1 bonus hit until around level 3.You are also correct that we should look at the progress through the previous level to figure out what the beginning of a new level looks like.  Arguably, we should assume half of the new level, but I'm willing to neglect that, especially since often the biggest magic item for a level will come in a climactic fight that levels the PCs up to the next level.However, I believe the rest of your argument is misguided.  Let's look at the bonuses from levels 6-11.  In each case, these bonuses are at the beginning of the level.At level 6:  A party of 5 characters has ten items of level 6-9, 4 items of level 5, 3 items of level 4, and a bunch of lower level items and gold (trash and cash).  On the assumption that the trash and cash is used to get some extra bonuses, that's about 2 +2 items and one +1 item in the core 3 slots (3 +2s is possible, 1 +2 and two +1s are also possible).  Average bonus:  +1 2/3At level 7:  Fourteen items of level 6-10, 4 items of level 5, trash and cash.  By this point, almost all of the characters will have +2 items in all of their slots.  If not, they should be selling the trash and cash to pay to increase items.  And note that the party should be able to increase the bonuses on its own items.  Average bonus:  +2.Level 8:  1 item of level 11, 17 items of level 6-10, trash and cash.  At this point, every PC should have a +2 item in all slots.  Again, the trash and cash helps fill in any holes and cover the value of the non-bonus items.  (If the party has a level 11, a level 10, and two level 8 wondrous items, then they use the trash to get a bunch more level 6 items to fill the holes).  Also, there's a good chance (not perfect) that one of the PCs has a +3 item.  Average bonus:  +2 and a rounding error.Level 9:  3 items of level 11+, 19 items of level 6-10, trash and cash.  Everyone has a +2 in all slots, plus the party has ~2 +3 items (maybe 3, especially if they spend cash aggressively to promote a +2 item or something).  Average bonus:  +2 2/15, maybe +2 1/5.Level 10:  6 items of level 11+, 20 items of level 6-10, trash and cash.  This is an important tipping point.  Now, pretty much everyone has a single +3 item, plus a +2 in everything else.  Average bonus:  +2 1/3.Level 11:  10 items of level 11+, 20 items of level 6-10, trash and cash.  Roughly half to two-thirds of the party's principal item slots are +3; the rest are +2.  Average bonus:  +2 1/2, maybe +2 2/3.  ETA:  This should really match up as one more than at level 6.  Either +1 2/3 was optimistic, or +2 1/2 is pessimistic.Putting these together and assuming the low ends of my ranges:6:  1 2/37:  28:  29:  2 2/1510:  2 1/311:  2 1/2(At that point, the cycle is basically stable, so <s>12 is about 2 2/3, 13 is about 3, etc.</s> ETA so 11 should be one more than 6, 12 should be 3, etc.)So:  if the inherent +2 kicks at level 6, the inherent characters spend 1 level ahead by <s>1/3</s> 1/2 of a plus, 2 levels at expected value, one level behind by 2/15, and one behind by 1/3, <s>and one behind by 1/2</s>.  On average over the <s>6</s> 5 levels, not counting mid level upgrades of equipment, they end up <s>behind by a little bit more than 1/12 of a plus</s> just about on average.If it hits at level 7, they spend 2 levels at expected value, one behind by 2/15, one behind by 1/3, one behind by 1/2, <s>and one behind by 2/3</s>.  On average, they're <s>behind by a little more than 1/4 of a plus</s> behind by about 1/5 of a plus.If it hits at level 8, they spend 1 level at expected value, one behind by 2/15, one behind by 1/3, one behind by 1/2, one behind by 2/3, <s>and one a whole point behind the curve</s>.  On average, <s>a little bit more than 5/12 behind the curve--call it a half point behind.</s> around 2/5 of a plus behind the curve.My point is, yes, if the inherent bonus goes to +2 at level 6, level 6 inherent bonus characters are a little bit ahead of treasure parcel characters (who are roughly on par with DMG advanced level build characters).  But level <s>11</s> 10 inherent bonus characters are behind level <s>11</s> 10 treasure parcel characters.  Even with the bonus arriving at level 6, over a five level cycle, the characters with the inherent bonus end up behind on average.  If the inherent bonus goes to +2 at level 7, then the inherent bonus characters are never ahead, and are behind by larger amounts.  On average, except for the first half of heroic tier, inherent bonus characters will be closest in power to their treasure parcel peers if the inherent bonuses increase at levels 6, 11, etc.  (Again, in a campaign with rare plus giving magic items, having the inherent bonuses arrive at level 7, 8, or even 9 might make for a good balance, depending on how rare plus giving magic items are--but in a campaign where they don't exist, balance is best at 6).Two more points:  What about the fourth slot?  Won't characters' second weapon lag?  Yes, but for the most part this comes out in the wash.  First, treasure parcel characters will disproportionately get bonuses where they need them the most, because the players will direct the items to the characters that get the most value out of them.  Second, it's vastly more important to have an additional +1 in your best slot than to lose a +1 in your fourth, back-up slot.  There are a couple of builds where this isn't entirely true.  Two-weapon warriors (i.e. melee rangers, some fighters, etc.) really need a bonus to both of their weapons.  And characters that are evenly split between melee and ranged really need a bonus to both.  (And pity the poor ranger who splits attacks roughly evenly between two swords and a bow, and needs three magic weapons at roughly parity...)  But in general, the treasure parcel characters take a +1 hit on the rare occasions (one time in five?  One time in 10?  Less?) when they attack with their back-up weapons, and in exchange they gain a +1 a fair chunk of the time on all of their other attacks (or on their AC, or on their weak NADs).  They clearly end up ahead by that trade.Second, what about a party that concentrates its magic weapons (etc.) at powerful effects, with lower bonuses?  "Because I use a +5/+10/+15 weapon and a +4/+9/+14 armor, I often lag a point behind in raw bonus, woe is me."  Cry me a river.  Presumably, you use those items because you think the effect is worth the trade-off.  Well, the inherent bonus characters don't get those effects.  (Maybe they get an occasional boon or something to compensate.)  If you're choosing to, for example, take a damage rider to your weapon instead of an additional +1 at some levels, that's because (at a pure optimization level) you think you're more effective on average with that trade-off.  We're not talking about any math fix to address the fact that at level 8, characters with an inherent +2 bonus have the same bonus as treasure parcel characters and none of the bells and whistles.  There doesn't need to be a math fix for the treasure parcel character who at level 11 lags behind because they have gee-whiz effects; they get their benefit when they're level 14 characters with the same average bonus and better effects.  On average across levels, it's still fair.In summary:  Obviously, in a low-end heroic game, giving a +1 inherent bonus at level 1 makes inherent bonus characters more powerful.  For low heroic tier, it should probably hit at level 3, which also means that characters get a +1 bonus with each level up from 1-4.  But for all other level ranges, if there are no magic items giving pluses, the bonuses will be fairest if they arrive at level 6 and each 5 levels after that, with level 7 and each 5 levels after that being close but stingy.</blockquote>

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