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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Syrsuro" data-source="post: 4127803" data-attributes="member: 58162">I am indeed he (who else could imitate my obsessively wordy posting style), and I recall you as well.  My group is planning on making the switch to 4E, so I've been hanging out here to see what I can learn.If you reread my posts, you will see that my major objection is to the existence of this 'crap' and the goal, first and foremost, is to get rid of that 'crap' 'litter[ing] the D&D world' (and thus devaluing magic and removing any sense of wonder).   In fact, I object to the item creation RAW because they imply the existence of that crap and the changes I propose are specifically to eliminate the crap.  Magic shops are a symptom of the problem, not the problem themselves.Again:  It is NOT the useful magic that is on the PCs I really object to, it is the usesless magic that they find and discard as pointless that I really object to.  (And thus stores are not needed because the players aren't finding that 'crap' and thus don't need to sell that 'crap'.   And they can't buy it because it is too rare and too valuable to be sitting on a merchants shelf.And, as has been pointed out already, a continuous stream of logic connects the 3E Magic Item Creation RAW to junk magic to magic stores (and, imho, this stream of logic also connects to the 'NPCs are built by the same rules as PCs' - but afaik I am alone in making that specific connection).I am specifically not talking about either the FR (a setting I never had much love for) or Greyhawk (not much better), or even the RAW.  I am talking about what I think the RAW should be - at least imho, and what it sounds like the 4E RAW might be more like.  Also, if you reread my post, you will see that I don't object to the PCs learning how to make it.  I just think it should be prohibitively costly in terms of time and effort that adventurers will typically decide that they have better things to do with their time (although for occasional projects - why not.   To modify what Patryn said (somewhat ironically since I it was intended as a counter) ""For a sword +1, you must  [insert annoying difficult process] ... or, ya know, pull it from the cold, dead hands of [it's prior owner],"  Sure, you can go overboard with the weirdness in the process.  But I have no problem with requiring -at a minimum -access to a Permanency spell.  It is the routine creation of magic, by anyone - PC or NPC - I object to.   Magic items should never (imho) be routine.In short, there isn't "SOMEONE is making all this crap, a LOT of someones to account for it all" - because there shouldn't be alot of it to account for in the first place.In my ideal world/ game system.In summary - I think it comes down to whether you see magic as a necessary part of the players toolkit, routine and simple upgrades to their daily equipment - and thus nothing special; or as something wondrous and special, something earned at great cost and memorable when found.  (And yes, among the many things I dislike about the FR/ Greyhawk setting is that there are way too many adventurers running around - I find it hard to imagine that the PCs can even find anything to do with all the competition.  I thought the players were supposed to be heroes, not adventuring party number  2345.Carl</blockquote>

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