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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6221695" data-attributes="member: 4937">I rather dislike D&D existing entirely as a self-referential meme.  At some point D&D seems to have gone from being inspired by fantasy and myth, to just being inspired by itself and I'm fairly sure it's not better for it.The reason I find it impossible to give you advice on what to do, is I have no idea what sort of fantasy and myth you are creating.  You tell me that it is the fantasy and myth of D&D.  Well then, ok, Bards are a Rogue subclass, obviously, because that's what they were formerly defined as right?  Or maybe not, because Bards in 1e were different.  And Monks are probably a Rogue subclass too, in that they used the Thief tables in 1e IIRC.  But maybe not, because 4e defined them differently.There can be a right and wrong though for the particular world you are trying to create.   Paladin's for example would be completely wrong for my world.  They are based off a romanticized single idea of a Judeo-Christian knight, a concept that can't possibly be important to the mythology of my world seeing as no Jewish God, no Christian church, and no historical period corresponding to the middle ages.  The beliefs and history that created the myth of the Paladin don't exist to provide for a myth or reality of a Paladin in my world.   If some member of the great family of 1000 gods chooses a champion in my world, it makes sense for that champion to embody the beliefs of those deities - and not to be some knockoff Orlando from this world.Again, I find this an entirely limiting definition.  What are the major archetypes of the world you are trying to create, and do you really want to create a system that only allows for the archetypes of one particular fantasy world?   Even if the answer is the later, what is that fantasy world?  Suppose it is Greyhawk, for example.  Monks in Greyhawk are arguably most often neither rogues nor priests, but enforcers and overseers who see to the internal discipline of an organization whether religious or political or a mystical cult or a tribe of strange beings.    What does that role suggest, and why make it either a rogue or a priest?  So far as I know, D&D accommodates me.  Now you are telling me that your D&D won't.   Again, you're not even creating D&D - you are recreating a small subset of D&D.So you are telling me that everything in your world will be the things that are in these 12 classes?  Ok, but in that case don't you still need to decide what the classes mean for the purposes of your world?   Are Bards in your world members of established temples and colleges, generally respected and considered holy men, is the institution established by custom, and are they normally considered servants of some deity, or is that situation rare?   Are Bards in your world travelling vagabonds and tricksters, living by their wits, practicing deceit, and otherwise acting as if the world owes them a living?  Are they feared, despised and sometimes persecuted not for their religious beliefs, but because they are tramps and thieves?   Either answer is technically correct, and maybe both answers can be correct, but however you answer it sets the tone for what is the answer to your question - rogue or priest.  There can't be one right answer because there has never been one right answer in D&D.But here you are going to the trouble to create your own ruleset.  So what do you want that D&D isn't giving you?  If you are just trying to recreate D&D, what's the point?  We've got tons of versions of D&D that let you play bards, barbarians, and paladins?  What's wrong with that D&D that you feel the need to rewrite it?  I think that the answer depends on the undisclosed world.  In my world for example, monks don't exist (if you wanted to make a martial artist, you'd make a fighter; if you wanted to make a cloistered religious figure, you'd probably make a cleric), and bards are primarily a persecuted version of the Wizard that has (as a result of their persecution and association with 'witchcraft') evolved toward skillfulness in deceit, trickery, and other things associated with the rogue to become a sort of magic-user/rogue hybrid.</blockquote>

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