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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6221772" data-attributes="member: 4937">You say that as if it is contradiction.  It's precisely because there is no narrow definition of the role of a class that renders association with a larger idea meaningless and counterproductive.  If we can't say whether a character that is mechanically a bard has the role of a wanderer, a priest, a sage, a scholar, a warlord, or a trickster, then why do we care to lump the class bard into a some larger role?IMO, the concept of a 'class' doesn't exist within the game world.  It's a meta-game construct we use because it is convenient to encourage breadth, diversity and balance between characters to lump together some mechanical ideas.  It discourages narrow johnny one-shot builds, to force players to buy a list of skills and take minor related abilities.  But by class we are saying very little about the role being played.  The class defines mainly what the character can do, but not who the character is.  For what the character is, we must turn to the setting and the player's imagination.If as you say, "A Monk or Bard (Bard, maybe moreso) could have any number of roles, origins and/or places in the world. That's up to you, the player.", what value are you creating by saying that a bard is more like the role 'rogue' or the role 'priest'?   Are you really expanding the definition of the class or are you really going to provide mechanical value and understanding to the Bard's abilities?Give you an example of what I mean.  There have been three NPC bards in my campaign so far:a) A Lay brother of the Temple of Aymara:  That is to say, this bard is actually literally a monk!  He's a non-priestly devotee of a temple in religious service.  The Aymarians are secretly tolerant of 'spell singing' (the sort of magic Bards perform), and Aymara secretly protects those that practice it.   As to his duties, publicly the NPC is an instructor and teacher, who helps train musicians so that they can bring beauty and the arts to the world has his patron desires.   Secretly, he is a member of a possibly heretical sect of undead hunters, that is to say, this monk is also trained as an assassin who goes about killing necromancers and putting to rest their creations.   So this this bard a monk, a cleric, a rogue, a warrior, a hunter, or what?   b) A Professor at a University: This bard performs the role of a sage or savant.  She keeps her magical abilities secret, for fear of public scandal and censure, but if discovered practicing magic she'd claim to be a dabbler in wizardly magic.  This bard performs neither the role of cleric or rogue, but rather is a non-religious lore-master.c) An Orine Skald Mercenary:  The Orine are not only tolerant of bards, but greatly respectful of them.  This bard performs closest to the traditional historical role of say an Irish Bard.  He is a lore master, keeper of traditions, religious assistant, respected tribal elder, and a war leader.    The answer here leans much more strongly to 'He's a cleric', than a 'He's a rogue'.  He's about as far from being a rogue in role as you can get.Interestingly, there have also been 2 NPC's with the role bard, in the sense of a travelling gleeman, but not the class bard.  One was an expert and one was a rogue.And for that matter, there have been 2 PC's with the role monk, in the sense of non-clerical member of a religious order, but neither had the class 'monk'.  One was (and is) a champion (think Paladin, sorta) of Aravar the god of the dead, and the other was rogue/hunter (think ranger, sorta) in the same aforementioned heretical sect.  By role, the former monk is more like a cleric, a crusading holy warrior.   The later was quite literally an assassin in both role and abilities, and so roguish in the usual understanding.</blockquote>

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