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Making a 5E Variant I *Want* To Play (+thread)
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<blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 8037183" data-attributes="member: 6987520"><p>1. No, I didn't forget it, I just don't think it should be nearly as strong as max proficiency. Think of it this way, a character with INT 18 will have a very broad knowledge about a lot of things (+4 to every INT/knowledge check), but without proficiency has not "delved deeper" into any field and should not likely know about the things a PC with proficiency would (in that skill, that is).</p><p></p><p>Let's look at a simple example. Suppose Andy is INT 18, Bob is INT 10 but has proficiency in Arcana. With a DC 15 check, Andy (with "disadvantage") would have a 25% chance to make the check. Bob, with the +2 modifier for proficiency only, but a flat d20 roll, would have a 40% chance. So, Bob should be more likely to know about Arcana because he's gone deeper into it.</p><p></p><p>Now, Andy with INT 18 has that same 25% chance for any DC 15 check (without proficiency), but without proficiency Bob has only a 9% chance. So, High INT still counts for a lot because it applies to all INT checks, but proficiency is focused and make someone with lower INT better at that one thing. If you give Andy proficiency in Arcana, his chance soars to 60%, combining high INT and further study/training beyond what a base ability score might provide.</p><p></p><p>2. That reminds me of the old AD&D minimum INT to cast X level spells. Not a bad addition really so I might incorporate some variant as a house-rule, but I generally find casters seek to near-max or max primary spellcasting ability scores anyway so it might be unnecessary.</p><p></p><p>3. This is basically the same as #1 where IMO proficiency should trump ability scores. To your point, the fighter probably would invest something into ASI or feat-related ASI +1 for STR, but the point is more about the +6 RAW max prof bonus compared to the +5 RAW max ability bonus. Another way to look at it is in RAW proficiency increases only +4 during your entire adventuring career. That +4 bump is <em>less than</em> the +5 bump you get from maxing out your ability score. So, in other words, the WotC design team for 5E valued maximum ability higher than all 20 levels of experience of adventuring. Just don't see it that way.</p><p></p><p>With my suggestion of +2 to +8 (and I only stopped at +8 to try to keep numbers in line with RAW to prevent <em>even more</em> tweaking and house-rules), the bump is +6, compared to the ability cap at 18 of +4. The ability bump is still very strong, but now is less than what 20 levels of adventuring experience represents. That just makes more sense to me as IME knowledge/skill trumps ability. (I know in 5E technically ability subsumes <em>some</em> training as well as raw talent, but the idea is still there.)</p><p></p><p>4. Improving save chances is necessary when compared to reducing HP bloat and the changes made to attacks. Think of it this way: the defender (whether against an attack or spell) has the "advantage". In saves, this is simply giving "advantage" to the roll. In attacks, this is accomplished by imposing "disadvantage" on the attacker because AC is static.</p><p></p><p>5. YMMV but for me 5E is <em>much slower</em> combat than AD&D was. We can take hours to resolve combat in 5E. Part of this is due to the experience of the players and I get that, but a big part is also due to the high hit success rate and subsequent damage rolls and hp tracking. We even went to average damage, but we don't force that because a lot of players enjoy rolling. I've been thinking about enforcing average damage on hits, and only allowing rolls on criticals but I have to discuss that with our group tomorrow.</p><p></p><p>6. Yep, love the fact there is a range. We sometimes bump BBEGs and solos to make the battle harder. I realized I could also do the minimum of the range (simply adding the number of HD to the bonus, as if all 1's were rolled) but doing half HP gets me close most times and seems to work better.</p><p></p><p>8. Yeah, AC is the item I am most going back and forth on right now.</p><p></p><p>Thanks a bunch for your input! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DND_Reborn, post: 8037183, member: 6987520"] 1. No, I didn't forget it, I just don't think it should be nearly as strong as max proficiency. Think of it this way, a character with INT 18 will have a very broad knowledge about a lot of things (+4 to every INT/knowledge check), but without proficiency has not "delved deeper" into any field and should not likely know about the things a PC with proficiency would (in that skill, that is). Let's look at a simple example. Suppose Andy is INT 18, Bob is INT 10 but has proficiency in Arcana. With a DC 15 check, Andy (with "disadvantage") would have a 25% chance to make the check. Bob, with the +2 modifier for proficiency only, but a flat d20 roll, would have a 40% chance. So, Bob should be more likely to know about Arcana because he's gone deeper into it. Now, Andy with INT 18 has that same 25% chance for any DC 15 check (without proficiency), but without proficiency Bob has only a 9% chance. So, High INT still counts for a lot because it applies to all INT checks, but proficiency is focused and make someone with lower INT better at that one thing. If you give Andy proficiency in Arcana, his chance soars to 60%, combining high INT and further study/training beyond what a base ability score might provide. 2. That reminds me of the old AD&D minimum INT to cast X level spells. Not a bad addition really so I might incorporate some variant as a house-rule, but I generally find casters seek to near-max or max primary spellcasting ability scores anyway so it might be unnecessary. 3. This is basically the same as #1 where IMO proficiency should trump ability scores. To your point, the fighter probably would invest something into ASI or feat-related ASI +1 for STR, but the point is more about the +6 RAW max prof bonus compared to the +5 RAW max ability bonus. Another way to look at it is in RAW proficiency increases only +4 during your entire adventuring career. That +4 bump is [I]less than[/I] the +5 bump you get from maxing out your ability score. So, in other words, the WotC design team for 5E valued maximum ability higher than all 20 levels of experience of adventuring. Just don't see it that way. With my suggestion of +2 to +8 (and I only stopped at +8 to try to keep numbers in line with RAW to prevent [I]even more[/I] tweaking and house-rules), the bump is +6, compared to the ability cap at 18 of +4. The ability bump is still very strong, but now is less than what 20 levels of adventuring experience represents. That just makes more sense to me as IME knowledge/skill trumps ability. (I know in 5E technically ability subsumes [I]some[/I] training as well as raw talent, but the idea is still there.) 4. Improving save chances is necessary when compared to reducing HP bloat and the changes made to attacks. Think of it this way: the defender (whether against an attack or spell) has the "advantage". In saves, this is simply giving "advantage" to the roll. In attacks, this is accomplished by imposing "disadvantage" on the attacker because AC is static. 5. YMMV but for me 5E is [I]much slower[/I] combat than AD&D was. We can take hours to resolve combat in 5E. Part of this is due to the experience of the players and I get that, but a big part is also due to the high hit success rate and subsequent damage rolls and hp tracking. We even went to average damage, but we don't force that because a lot of players enjoy rolling. I've been thinking about enforcing average damage on hits, and only allowing rolls on criticals but I have to discuss that with our group tomorrow. 6. Yep, love the fact there is a range. We sometimes bump BBEGs and solos to make the battle harder. I realized I could also do the minimum of the range (simply adding the number of HD to the bonus, as if all 1's were rolled) but doing half HP gets me close most times and seems to work better. 8. Yeah, AC is the item I am most going back and forth on right now. Thanks a bunch for your input! :) [/QUOTE]
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