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<blockquote data-quote="DND_Reborn" data-source="post: 8038908" data-attributes="member: 6987520">Sure. But IME now were are in near tier 4 (16th level currently) expertise bumping the numbers often takes such skills beyond the realm of anyone even having a chance to counter/defeat it in a contested roll.For instance, we have two rogues, both with expertise in stealth. In RAW, one with DEX 18, the other 16, they have +14 and +13 stealth mods, respectively. Now, throw in advantage for boots of elvenkind and/or invisibility, and their &quot;typical&quot; stealth totals end up around 28. Very few things in D&amp;D have a passive score of 28 or better, or even a decent +8 to begin with for a chance to detect them.Granted, these are powerful PCs, with expertise, and magic often (don't even get me going on Pass Without Trace!!!&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes&nbsp; &nbsp; :rolleyes:"&nbsp; data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /> ), but still we had to house-rule nat 20's will see them so there is at least a chance, even remote, of them not winning the contested roll.So, if I allowed proficiency to range to +11, with expertise allowing ability to add to it, I could get up to +15 which puts me in the same boat. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown&nbsp; &nbsp; :("&nbsp; data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />Which is why we switched to advantage for expertise. It makes you more likely to do well, without raising the ceiling. Since we allow multiple sources to stack, it still helps to employ magic items and/or invisibility.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="DND_Reborn, post: 8038908, member: 6987520"] Sure. But IME now were are in near tier 4 (16th level currently) expertise bumping the numbers often takes such skills beyond the realm of anyone even having a chance to counter/defeat it in a contested roll. For instance, we have two rogues, both with expertise in stealth. In RAW, one with DEX 18, the other 16, they have +14 and +13 stealth mods, respectively. Now, throw in advantage for boots of elvenkind and/or invisibility, and their "typical" stealth totals end up around 28. Very few things in D&D have a passive score of 28 or better, or even a decent +8 to begin with for a [I]chance[/I] to detect them. Granted, these are powerful PCs, with expertise, and magic often (don't even get me going on Pass Without Trace!!! :rolleyes: ), but still we had to house-rule nat 20's will see them so there is at least a chance, even remote, of them not winning the contested roll. So, if I allowed proficiency to range to +11, with expertise allowing ability to add to it, I could get up to +15 which puts me in the same boat. :( Which is why we switched to advantage for expertise. It makes you more likely to do well, without raising the ceiling. Since we allow multiple sources to stack, it still helps to employ magic items and/or invisibility. [/QUOTE]

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