Making a spellcasting Balor - help with CR
- Thread starter Zarnam
- Start date
Infiniti2000
First Post
I'd say +2 for just spellcasting without the spontaneous conversion of clerics for inflict spells and no domains. Perhaps still only +2 with domains if you don't try to minmax them, but maybe +3 if you minmax them. +3 if you add domains and spontaneous conversion or try to also add turning.
The miracle spell alone is very significant and be very careful with it and what assumptions you make. For instance, it's very easy to just say the balor has a +5 inherent bonus on all stats, but that would be a bogus choice IMO.
The miracle spell alone is very significant and be very careful with it and what assumptions you make. For instance, it's very easy to just say the balor has a +5 inherent bonus on all stats, but that would be a bogus choice IMO.
Nail
First Post
Right.Infiniti2000 said:
Although it is the best option (that's what my Clr 17 started to do ASAP), don't allow the Balor to use Miracle for inherent bonuses.....or if you do, increase the CR accordingly.
A Balor (CR 20) + a Human Clr 20 (CR 20) would be an EL 22......so it's a reasonable guide for a Balor Clr 20 (CR 22 or 23).
Infiniti2000
First Post
A human cleric 20 (CR20) + a human wizard 20 (CR20) = EL22. A human cleric 20/wizard 20 = CR40 though.Nail said:
Wonko the Sane
First Post
If you use the rules for adding class levels to monsters, you have to decide whether or not the class levels accentuate the monster's existing abilities (see MM pg 293-294).
In this case (Balor+Cleric levels), I would say that the cleric levels are non-associated, and the Balor Cleric 20 would have a CR of 30 - quite high for any 19th-level party.
WtS
In this case (Balor+Cleric levels), I would say that the cleric levels are non-associated, and the Balor Cleric 20 would have a CR of 30 - quite high for any 19th-level party.
WtS
Infiniti2000
First Post
Fortunately, that's not this case. This case is not a balor cleric 20. They are not cleric levels.Wonko the Sane said:
I'm quite happy to see that most poeple agree with what I came up with myself so far - that the CR increase would be around +2/+3, great
Now, what if the Balor in question would be given not 20, but say 24 "spellcasting levels" ?? Do you think that a +4 CR would be too high or just fine ??
Thanks for input
Now, what if the Balor in question would be given not 20, but say 24 "spellcasting levels" ?? Do you think that a +4 CR would be too high or just fine ??
Thanks for input
Fieari
Explorer
I always look up U_K's ECL document (version 5) for this sort of thing.
ECL +0.44/level of Integrated Sorcerer or Wizard spells
ECL +0.38/level of Integrated Cleric spells (includes bonus Domain spells)
ECL +0.28/level of Integrated Druid spells
ECL +0.15/level of Integrated Bard spells
CR = 2/3 ECL. Some other forum members have called this the "KR" instead of CR, to clarify matters.
Adding 20 integrated cleric levels would add 5 KR by this method. Balors are KR 22 already by this system... which would make the total KR 27.
For a party of four ECL 19 characters, a KR 27 fight would be an EL+1 fight, which is classified as a "Very Difficult", party victory 25%, utilizing all party resources for the fight, good for a Nemesis. It wouldn't hurt to make it slightly more deadly either, as the "Very Difficult" category covers EL+1 to +4. (Note: Equal EL means it's a 50/50 fight, could go either way. Positive ELs mean the party is actually at a power disadvantage. Equal CRs or KRs, on the other hand, are weighted in the parties favor.)
To raise the EL to +2, you'd have to have a KR 32 Balor. To do this by adding spellcasting levels alone would require 40 integrated cleric levels. Of course, integrated levels should never exceed HD. So instead, I'd reccomend integrating 20 levels of cleric, and then adding 10 LEVELS (HD included) of cleric on top of that... if you also added 10 levels of wealth. Without adding equipment, you'd need 15 levels of cleric to make the Balor EL+2.
EL+1 is probably fine though. It's still a nasty encounter that will scare the living daylights out of the party and give them more than a run for their money. Making it EL+2 is still a POSSIBLE fight to win, but the players will only win by the skin of their teeth, careful and clever tactics, maybe a bit of well optimized character builds thrown in for good measure, and other such things.
ECL +0.44/level of Integrated Sorcerer or Wizard spells
ECL +0.38/level of Integrated Cleric spells (includes bonus Domain spells)
ECL +0.28/level of Integrated Druid spells
ECL +0.15/level of Integrated Bard spells
CR = 2/3 ECL. Some other forum members have called this the "KR" instead of CR, to clarify matters.
Adding 20 integrated cleric levels would add 5 KR by this method. Balors are KR 22 already by this system... which would make the total KR 27.
For a party of four ECL 19 characters, a KR 27 fight would be an EL+1 fight, which is classified as a "Very Difficult", party victory 25%, utilizing all party resources for the fight, good for a Nemesis. It wouldn't hurt to make it slightly more deadly either, as the "Very Difficult" category covers EL+1 to +4. (Note: Equal EL means it's a 50/50 fight, could go either way. Positive ELs mean the party is actually at a power disadvantage. Equal CRs or KRs, on the other hand, are weighted in the parties favor.)
To raise the EL to +2, you'd have to have a KR 32 Balor. To do this by adding spellcasting levels alone would require 40 integrated cleric levels. Of course, integrated levels should never exceed HD. So instead, I'd reccomend integrating 20 levels of cleric, and then adding 10 LEVELS (HD included) of cleric on top of that... if you also added 10 levels of wealth. Without adding equipment, you'd need 15 levels of cleric to make the Balor EL+2.
EL+1 is probably fine though. It's still a nasty encounter that will scare the living daylights out of the party and give them more than a run for their money. Making it EL+2 is still a POSSIBLE fight to win, but the players will only win by the skin of their teeth, careful and clever tactics, maybe a bit of well optimized character builds thrown in for good measure, and other such things.
