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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Eldritch_Lord" data-source="post: 5020249" data-attributes="member: 52073">I'm not trying to shut down debate; where did I say or imply that just because I feel you're being too hard on the mundanes that your opinion is invalid?  I do, however, think that calling ambush feats too powerful and objecting to status effects or lots of stat damage is unwarranted when comparing it to what monsters, martial adepts, and casters can do around that level.  Seriously, how does 10 Con damage 1/encounter compare to things like greater planar binding or polymorph for a wizard, initial 1d6 Con/secondary death poison for a pit fiend, Bows of Infinite Slaying Arrows for solars, 2d6 to all physical abilities via the Shadow Hand capstone for swordsages, or similar?Rogues should be able to take out single opponents with sneak attacks fairly easily.  It's what they do in combat.  Whether that comes through +50d6 SA for a plain dual-wielding rogue, a bunch of Con damage for an ambusher or poisoner rogue, instant death for an assassin rogue, or something else, killing things suddenly isn't nearly as awesome as you're making it out to be.  If your gaming philosophy (and by extension house rules) change that assumption, then (A) it doesn't really apply, because the OP most likely isn't using them and (B) you should probably state such up front.I never said whether I thought it was a balanced ability or not; I did, however, note that it exists in 3.5, and unless you've houseruled it back to the 3.0 version or ruled it out of existence it's something you have to take into account.  Again, unless stated otherwise it can be assumed the OP is using things like that in their game, balanced or not, and ambush feats should be balanced with its availability in mind.And there are a bazillion-and-a-half monsters with SA immunity as well, so are magic vs. SA comparisons invalidated because of that?  Of course not; there are different ways to protect against them, and different ways to get around those protections, but the end result is the same effect regardless of which subset of enemies might be vulnerable to it.For the ambush feat to work, you have to get past possible SA immunity, then AC and miss chances, and you have to be in a position to get SA.  The amount of work needed to get past defenses should help determine the strength of an effect, yes, but we're talking about a 3rd level spell vs. the ability of a 19th level rogue, and the spell's damage potential is higher!Again, an admirable goal (and one I happen to agree with), but as long as there are no save abilities in the game, you have to take those into account for balancing abilities.But it does make sense that ambush feats be limited in use--if you leap at your opponent, stab him in the stomach, and yell "Hah!  Betcha didn't see that coming!" then he's not going to fall for it a second time.  Hence why I suggested once per opponent per encounter.So...what?  You'd suggest implementing a condition track or other penalties from lost hit points?  Good idea, but outside of the scope of this thread.  You'd suggest making sure any attack dealing status effects should deal HP damage, or that rogues get these effects for free on top of SA?  Fine by me, but that seems to go against your earlier points.If I seem overly antagonistic here, I apologize, but I sincerely believe that you're being overly conservative when considering where the rogue's power level should fall relative to other classes, and that you're not considering the full scope of 3.5 when making your assessments.  Yes, it's broken in places; yes, its designers made a mistake or two dozen in the 3.5 update, but short of a system-wide fix you need to consider ambush feats as they fall in 3.5 as it is, not as it should be.I don't have time to go through all the feats right now, but here's an example of what I mean:Taking this feat, a 3rd-level rogue has spent two feats for the privilege of imposing a -1 penalty on attack rolls and 2 skill checks...for a grand total of 1 round...if they hit with a sneak attack...if they manage to also crit with that sneak attack...and if the enemy fails a Fort save whose DC is based on a tertiary rogue stat.  Meanwhile, he could instead have used that feat slot for Martial Study (Blistering Flourish) to dazzle everyone within 30 feet for 1 minute after any successful attack, SA or crit or otherwise, if he absolutely must dazzle people.  Sure, it's supernatural and has a lower save DC, but that doesn't justify giving the ambush feat the restrictions it has.</blockquote>

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