Making Boss/Sub-Boss with CRs

[Ovinomancer]

Thanks for all the responses.

The lackeys for the sub-boss are two Acolytes. They have good ACs (18) but are otherwise just like Level 1 Clerics. I might add one or two more warrior types as well, but all the lackeys will be CR 1 or less. So far, I am looking at a Paladin 2/ Cleric 5 for the sub-boss.

This is barely an easy encounter for 7 characters as you've described using a CR 3 sub-boss.

The boss has 3 zombie guards with pretty high HP and longswords (1d10+1), and a Giant snake (CR 2) with good HP also. I am thinking about 9th level for the boss, but haven't thought about class-level distribution yet.

This does barely breach deadly with a CR 5 BBEG.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

This is barely an easy encounter for 7 characters as you've described using a CR 3 sub-boss.

If I am doing (i.e. understanding) the calculations correctly, the seven characters have a Moderate XP level at 1550 (5 x 250 + 2 x 150). The Acolytes at CR 1 are worth 400 XP and Gorth at CR 3 is worth 700 XP, for a total of 1100 XP. The multiplier would be 1.5 (not 2, since more than 4 characters), giving an adjusted value of 1650 XP, 100 points over the 1550 needed for a Moderate encounter.

What am I missing???

 

[aco175]

I was looking at your stats for the boss and you should remember that you do not need to add PC class levels like the monster is a PC. Add elements and powers that fit the concept and make it a better encounter. Instead of adding something like defensive fighting you can just add 1d6 damage. A 21AC makes the encounter more difficult, but leaving it at 18 and making damage 2d6+4 makes him hard to hit and he deals enough damage to make PCs think hard. Give him 2 attacks and he is good. Better if you give him a theme like something that works with war god, like the extra 1d6 damage being lightning or thunder.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I'll focus on your question about Gorth's CR for now... Tl;dr he's probably more like CR 5.

{snip}

As stated above, the CR system is not an exact science. There's a lot of art hidden in monster maths, and a different spell strategy or different targeting assumptions could change his CR by +/-2.

Thanks for the critique! Gorth might work better as the BBEG, instead of the sub-boss since I need a CR 5 guy for the end. I'll try a build as maybe a Cleric 4 and see how that translate once I add in abilities a la feats, etc.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I was looking at your stats for the boss and you should remember that you do not need to add PC class levels like the monster is a PC. Add elements and powers that fit the concept and make it a better encounter. Instead of adding something like defensive fighting you can just add 1d6 damage. A 21AC makes the encounter more difficult, but leaving it at 18 and making damage 2d6+4 makes him hard to hit and he deals enough damage to make PCs think hard. Give him 2 attacks and he is good. Better if you give him a theme like something that works with war god, like the extra 1d6 damage being lightning or thunder.

Thanks. I'm going to work some more on it tonight. I'll be back with revised sub-boss and boss tomorrow probably. It is good food for thought!

 

[Ovinomancer]

If I am doing (i.e. understanding) the calculations correctly, the seven characters have a Moderate XP level at 1550 (5 x 250 + 2 x 150). The Acolytes at CR 1 are worth 400 XP and Gorth at CR 3 is worth 700 XP, for a total of 1100 XP. The multiplier would be 1.5 (not 2, since more than 4 characters), giving an adjusted value of 1650 XP, 100 points over the 1550 needed for a Moderate encounter.

What am I missing???

Acolytes are CR 1/4?

Oh, you mean you built two level 1 clerics and are calling them CR 1? Yeah, probably not. Using PC rules for foes is sketchy at best. A 1st level cleric with AC 17 that spams guiding bolt for 3 rounds comes out at a CR 1/2.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

Acolytes are CR 1/4?

Oh, you mean you built two level 1 clerics and are calling them CR 1? Yeah, probably not. Using PC rules for foes is sketchy at best. A 1st level cleric with AC 17 that spams guiding bolt for 3 rounds comes out at a CR 1/2.

Yeah, sorry if there was some confusion due to the nomenclature. The "Acolytes" with the sub-boss are CR1 as I have them, but I might reduce them and add a couple "guards" to help balance out the numbers for the encounter. Either way, even with the sub-boss at CR 4, the encounter works out pretty well, rating Moderate towards Hard.

Once I have everything fleshed out, I'll post it for your critique. The help is appreciated since this is my first attempt at making CRs for a custom encounter and the BBEG.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

SUB-BOSS ENCOUNTER: Gorth, a Cultist Priest; 2 Cultist Acolytes and 2 Cultist Guards

GORTH - Cultist Priest
Medium humanoid (human), Chaotic Evil
----
Armor Class: 20 (Plate, Shield)
Hit Points: 44 (8d8 + 8)
Speed: 20 ft.
----
Str: 13 Dex: 10 Con: 13 Int: 12 Wis: 14 Chr: 14
----
Saves: Constitution +4, Wisdom +5, Charisma +5
Skills: Insight+5, Medicine +5, Perception +5, Persuasion+5, Religion +4
Languages: Common, Abyssal, Infernal, Orc
----
Abyssal Glory. Gorth can expend a 1st-level spell slot to deal an additional 2d6 points of necrotic damage. Each additional level of the spell slot increases the damage by +1d6.

Guided Strike (1/Day). Gorth can use his channel divinity to gain a +10 to his attack roll, applying the bonus even after the roll, but before the outcome of the attack is determined.

War Caster. Gorth has advantage on Constitution saving throws to maintain concentration on spells when he takes damage.

War Priest. Gorth can make a second melee attack as a bonus action when he makes a melee attack.

Spellcasting. Gorth is a 5th-level caster. Spell save is DC 13 and +5 to attack rolls with spells. Gorth has the following spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): Light, Resistance, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead
1st Level (4 slots): Command, Inflict Wounds, Necrotic Bolt, Shield of Faith
2nd Level (3 slots): Aid, Silence, Spiritual Weapon
3rd Level (2 slots): Dispel Magic, Spirit Guardians
----
Actions:

Mace. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 5 (1d6+1) bludgeoning damage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cultist Acolyte
Medium humanoid (human), Chaotic Evil
----
Armor Class: 18 (Chain, Shield)
Hit Points: 17 (3d8 + 3)
Speed: 20 ft.
----
Str: 12 Dex: 10 Con: 12 Int: 10 Wis: 14 Chr: 12
----
Saves: Wisdom +4, Charisma +3
Skills: Medicine +4, Religion +2
Languages: Common, Abyssal
----
Spellcasting. The Cultist Acolyte is a 1st-level caster. Spell save is DC 12 and +4 to attack rolls with spells. The Acolyte Cultist has the following spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): Light, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead
1st Level (2 slots): Divine Favor, Inflict Wounds, Necrotic Bolt, Shield of Faith
----
Actions:

Mace. Melee Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 5 (1d6+1) bludgeoning damage.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cultist Guard
Medium humanoid (human), Chaotic Evil
----
Armor Class: 18 (Chain, Shield)
Hit Points: 20 (3d8 + 6)
Speed: 20 ft.
----
Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 8 Chr: 8
----
Saves: Strength +4, Constitution +4
Skills: Intimidation +2
Languages: Common, Abyssal
----
Second Wind (Recharges after a Short or Long Rest). As a bonus action, the Cultist Guard can regain 7 hit points.

Savage Attacker. The Cultist Guard gains +1 to damage with melee attacks (inlcuded below).
----
Actions:

Longsword. Melee Weapon Attack: +4 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 8 (1d8+3) slashing damage.



So, that's the sub-boss encounter. I am aiming for Gorth to be CR 4 and the Cultist Acolytes and Cultist Guards to be CR 1. It works okay if they are closer to CR 5 and CR 1/2 for the others, though.

If the CRs are way off, please offer feedback and thanks again.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

BOSS ENCOUNTER - Verdax, a Cultist Leader, 3 Zombies (normal) and 1 Giant Constrictor Snake

VERDAX - Cultist Leader
Medium humanoid (human), Chaotic Evil
----
Armor Class: 19 (Plate, Cloak of Protection +1)
Hit Points: 65 (10d8 + 20)
Speed: 20 ft.
----
Str: 14 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 12 Wis: 17 Chr: 14
----
Saves: Constitution +6, Wisdom +7, Charisma +6
Skills: Insight+6, Intimidation +5, Medicine +6, Perception +6, Religion +4
Languages: Common, Abyssal, Draconic, Infernal, Orc
----
Abyssal Bane (1/Day). Verdax can cause a target of one of his spells to have disadvantage on their spell save.

Quick Caster (3/Day). As a bonus action, Verdax can cast a cantrip from those known below.

Spell Accuracy. Verdax ignores penalties for casting spells against targets with half or three-quarters cover.

Unholy Ward. Attacks made against Verdax by creatures of good alignment are at disadvantage.

Spellcasting. Verdax is a 7th-level caster. Spell save is DC 15 and +7 to attack rolls with spells. Verdix has the following spells prepared:

Cantrips (at will): Light, Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead, Word of Radiance
1st Level (4 slots): Bane, Command, Inflict Wounds, Necrotic Bolt, Shield of Faith
2nd Level (3 slots): Aid, Silence, Spiritual Weapon
3rd Level (3 slots): Dispel Magic, Life Transference, Spirit Guardians
4th Level (1 slot): Banishment, Guardian of Faith
----
Actions:

Multiattack. Verdax can make a second melee attack when he uses the attack action.

Mace (+1). Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft. one target. Hit: 7 (1d6+3) bludgeoning damage.



What would you have Verdax's CR be? I am thinking CR 6 or so.

 

[aco175]

I like these better. I would make their HP higher and not like monsters where they are half or average for their kind. I tend to make boss monsters more like PCs where they are stronger for their kind. Plus, PCs deal big damage and would kill somone with 65 hp in 2-3 rounds. Make him with 100 and he may stick around, or give him a cool healing power where he also heals or raises the zombies.