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<blockquote data-quote="Quickleaf" data-source="post: 8749395" data-attributes="member: 20323"><p>For whatever the maths are worth, your test fight pitted them against double the five person 6th level party's minimum "Deadly" threshold (7,000 adjusted xp > 13,200 adjusted xp).</p><p></p><p>Another way of saying this is that you used about 66% of their adventuring day XP budget (which is 20,000 adj xp) in a single encounter.</p><p></p><p>Pumping up the numbers is definitely one of the dials you can turn to increase challenge. I think it's very worthwhile, especially with shorter more episodic sessions.</p><p></p><p>However, these examples you gave are really good points to explore more deeply... Just adding 1-2 twists to each can really up the stakes and challenge for your 6th level characters...</p><p></p><p>What if the route up to the roof is festooned with banners or clotheslines that could ensnare the winged paladin? Will the paladin risk it or let the monk solo the assassin until the rest of the group can ascend the stairs?</p><p></p><p>What if the roof can only support so much weight in one spot, so there's a chance of the roof collapsing under the villain & monk, dropping them into the building below?</p><p></p><p></p><p>What if there are enemies in disguise or otherwise hidden that PCs haven't realized yet, but you've dropped hints that there might be disguised enemies? Yes, the ranger reaches their intended target, but now they're surrounded!</p><p></p><p>What if there is difficult terrain not of the ranger's favored terrain type, or some kind of terrain obstacle that requires a check to surmount, or a deadfall/pit to jump that exceeds their max running long jump distance?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Those aren't really encounter examples or unique to 6th level, and the whole darkvision question is a much longer topic, so I'll just speak to Pass Without Trace. The counters I've employed (when thematically appropriate):</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lack of cover sufficient to hide behind or lack of sufficiently dim light conditions - encouraging players to get creative about how to extinguish light sources, distract sentries, or manipulate cover <em>in order to create the opportunity</em> to Hide in the first place</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Damaging environments or distracting environments that require Concentration checks</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Groups of clustered enemies too far to all be easily engaged, but within yelling distance if they try to call for reinforcements</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Enemies with summoning / teleportation powers or disguised fellows nearby that can cause their numbers to suddenly escalate</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Including a treacherous ally NPC among those benefiting from <em>pass without trace, </em>leaving behind a trail or giving away their position</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters that employ <em>pass without trace </em>on their own ambushes</li> </ul><p>This sort of "spell one-upsmanship" is built into D&D of all editions at all levels, really. It is an extra bit of work, though, and a GM needs to decide how much enjoyment they get out of that. If it's not at least a little enjoyable, then you can mitigate it by sticking to lower levels, restricting magic, playing a different system, taking breaks to let someone else GM so you can recharge, house ruling whatever the problematic element is (e.g. surprise rules), etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p>When you think about it, damage resistances would only be interesting to players insofar as the creative workarounds / solutions the players could devise. Otherwise they're a passive design (they don't showcase what's cool about a monster) that might prolong combat duration. It's a weak point in D&D that has carried over and reached a zenith in 5e.</p><p></p><p>You have to find a solution that works for you. Maybe you remove them from the game and just use the DMG page 274 as a HP multiplier for such monsters, simple and done.</p><p></p><p>For me, I've been reworking damage resistances towards a more folkloric feel with very defined countermeasures to each such monster's resistances that reflect its story. This is a labor of love approach, not the quick way. Take your helmed horrors for instance – if they were created by a lovelorn mage whose motive was to punish the elven family that denied his suiting their daughter, and to bind the daughter's spirit to the earthy plane – maybe the damage resistances of his helmed horrors are overcome by "a weapon wielded by someone who knows true love" or "an elven lunar runic blade" or "a weapon wielded by someone blessed by the ghost of his beloved."</p><p></p><p></p><p>Two separate observations, both valid, but I want to distinguish them...</p><p></p><p>High AC characters have lots of counters you can employ:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters that Hide, become Invisible, use the Help action (this is a BIG one), or otherwise regularly gain advantage to attack.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters that inflict Blinded, Paralyzed, Prone, Restrained, or Stunned conditions (thereby their side gains advantage to attack)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters that cast <em>bless </em>or have similar leaders/shamans who can boost attack bonus.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters that target saving throws.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters that use dangerous terrain by focusing on Shoving & Grappling.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters uniquely suited to a dangerous/trapped environment, like kobolds who slip below cave fisher silk tripwires or are too light individually to trigger pressure plates, or salamanders immune to ongoing heat damage emanating from the ancient dwarven forge.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Judicious and rare application of armor-targeting effects like being suddenly plunged underwater or the <em>heat metal </em>spell.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters that employ <em>counterspell </em>and/or <em>dispel magic </em>to debuff PCs relying on magical defenses such as <em>shield. </em></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Monsters that appear in overwhelming numbers such that you use the Mob rules in the DMG which completely circumvent attack rolls in favor of "weight of numbers."</li> </ul><p>Damage output of monsters can be an issue as you press into higher levels – it's very uneven, so you have some monsters that don't even compete, while others can be really devastating (e.g. <strong>banshee</strong> or the <strong>titanoboa</strong> from <em>Tome of Beasts</em>). One metric I use is keeping track of my party's average maximum HP value, which often works out to something like a d8 HD and +1 Con modifier, so at 6th level I might keep 41 HP in the back of my mind.</p><p></p><p>So if we go back to your hypothetical <strong>helmed horror </strong>idea, it's going to take 5 attacks that hit (at +6) for the helmed horrors to down a fresh PC, on average (my numbers may be a little off for your group, but you can adjust accordingly). That means in one round at least 3 helmed horrors (out of 5, was it?) attacking the same PC. So you can see the helmed horror damage is on the low side for your 6th level party.</p><p></p><p>Some tricks I might employ to make the helmed horrors more of a threat would be...</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Give them the <em>booming blade </em>cantrip (they attack then fly away, if the affected PC tries to reach them that PC takes the thunder damage)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Have some magical device that casts <em>elemental weapons </em>on their swords at initiative count 20, boosting their attack a bit and giving them +1d4 damage per attack, just enough to allow two lucky helmed horrors to potentially down a single PC.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Include a damaging environment that inflicts low-grade ongoing force, necrotic, or poison damage which the helmed horrors are immune to. Maybe there is a sparking/broken/corrupted <em>wand of magic missile</em> launching random bolts across the room (easily destroyed, but salvaging the magic item requires more effort), or maybe there's a poison gas trap emanating from the visor of a sixth helmed horror that appears to be an inanimate statue until tampered with.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quickleaf, post: 8749395, member: 20323"] For whatever the maths are worth, your test fight pitted them against double the five person 6th level party's minimum "Deadly" threshold (7,000 adjusted xp > 13,200 adjusted xp). Another way of saying this is that you used about 66% of their adventuring day XP budget (which is 20,000 adj xp) in a single encounter. Pumping up the numbers is definitely one of the dials you can turn to increase challenge. I think it's very worthwhile, especially with shorter more episodic sessions. However, these examples you gave are really good points to explore more deeply... Just adding 1-2 twists to each can really up the stakes and challenge for your 6th level characters... What if the route up to the roof is festooned with banners or clotheslines that could ensnare the winged paladin? Will the paladin risk it or let the monk solo the assassin until the rest of the group can ascend the stairs? What if the roof can only support so much weight in one spot, so there's a chance of the roof collapsing under the villain & monk, dropping them into the building below? What if there are enemies in disguise or otherwise hidden that PCs haven't realized yet, but you've dropped hints that there might be disguised enemies? Yes, the ranger reaches their intended target, but now they're surrounded! What if there is difficult terrain not of the ranger's favored terrain type, or some kind of terrain obstacle that requires a check to surmount, or a deadfall/pit to jump that exceeds their max running long jump distance? Those aren't really encounter examples or unique to 6th level, and the whole darkvision question is a much longer topic, so I'll just speak to Pass Without Trace. The counters I've employed (when thematically appropriate): [LIST] [*]Lack of cover sufficient to hide behind or lack of sufficiently dim light conditions - encouraging players to get creative about how to extinguish light sources, distract sentries, or manipulate cover [I]in order to create the opportunity[/I] to Hide in the first place [*]Damaging environments or distracting environments that require Concentration checks [*]Groups of clustered enemies too far to all be easily engaged, but within yelling distance if they try to call for reinforcements [*]Enemies with summoning / teleportation powers or disguised fellows nearby that can cause their numbers to suddenly escalate [*]Including a treacherous ally NPC among those benefiting from [I]pass without trace, [/I]leaving behind a trail or giving away their position [*]Monsters that employ [I]pass without trace [/I]on their own ambushes [/LIST] This sort of "spell one-upsmanship" is built into D&D of all editions at all levels, really. It is an extra bit of work, though, and a GM needs to decide how much enjoyment they get out of that. If it's not at least a little enjoyable, then you can mitigate it by sticking to lower levels, restricting magic, playing a different system, taking breaks to let someone else GM so you can recharge, house ruling whatever the problematic element is (e.g. surprise rules), etc. When you think about it, damage resistances would only be interesting to players insofar as the creative workarounds / solutions the players could devise. Otherwise they're a passive design (they don't showcase what's cool about a monster) that might prolong combat duration. It's a weak point in D&D that has carried over and reached a zenith in 5e. You have to find a solution that works for you. Maybe you remove them from the game and just use the DMG page 274 as a HP multiplier for such monsters, simple and done. For me, I've been reworking damage resistances towards a more folkloric feel with very defined countermeasures to each such monster's resistances that reflect its story. This is a labor of love approach, not the quick way. Take your helmed horrors for instance – if they were created by a lovelorn mage whose motive was to punish the elven family that denied his suiting their daughter, and to bind the daughter's spirit to the earthy plane – maybe the damage resistances of his helmed horrors are overcome by "a weapon wielded by someone who knows true love" or "an elven lunar runic blade" or "a weapon wielded by someone blessed by the ghost of his beloved." Two separate observations, both valid, but I want to distinguish them... High AC characters have lots of counters you can employ: [LIST] [*]Monsters that Hide, become Invisible, use the Help action (this is a BIG one), or otherwise regularly gain advantage to attack. [*]Monsters that inflict Blinded, Paralyzed, Prone, Restrained, or Stunned conditions (thereby their side gains advantage to attack) [*]Monsters that cast [I]bless [/I]or have similar leaders/shamans who can boost attack bonus. [*]Monsters that target saving throws. [*]Monsters that use dangerous terrain by focusing on Shoving & Grappling. [*]Monsters uniquely suited to a dangerous/trapped environment, like kobolds who slip below cave fisher silk tripwires or are too light individually to trigger pressure plates, or salamanders immune to ongoing heat damage emanating from the ancient dwarven forge. [*]Judicious and rare application of armor-targeting effects like being suddenly plunged underwater or the [I]heat metal [/I]spell. [*]Monsters that employ [I]counterspell [/I]and/or [I]dispel magic [/I]to debuff PCs relying on magical defenses such as [I]shield. [/I] [*]Monsters that appear in overwhelming numbers such that you use the Mob rules in the DMG which completely circumvent attack rolls in favor of "weight of numbers." [/LIST] Damage output of monsters can be an issue as you press into higher levels – it's very uneven, so you have some monsters that don't even compete, while others can be really devastating (e.g. [B]banshee[/B] or the [B]titanoboa[/B] from [I]Tome of Beasts[/I]). One metric I use is keeping track of my party's average maximum HP value, which often works out to something like a d8 HD and +1 Con modifier, so at 6th level I might keep 41 HP in the back of my mind. So if we go back to your hypothetical [B]helmed horror [/B]idea, it's going to take 5 attacks that hit (at +6) for the helmed horrors to down a fresh PC, on average (my numbers may be a little off for your group, but you can adjust accordingly). That means in one round at least 3 helmed horrors (out of 5, was it?) attacking the same PC. So you can see the helmed horror damage is on the low side for your 6th level party. Some tricks I might employ to make the helmed horrors more of a threat would be... [LIST] [*]Give them the [I]booming blade [/I]cantrip (they attack then fly away, if the affected PC tries to reach them that PC takes the thunder damage) [*]Have some magical device that casts [I]elemental weapons [/I]on their swords at initiative count 20, boosting their attack a bit and giving them +1d4 damage per attack, just enough to allow two lucky helmed horrors to potentially down a single PC. [*]Include a damaging environment that inflicts low-grade ongoing force, necrotic, or poison damage which the helmed horrors are immune to. Maybe there is a sparking/broken/corrupted [I]wand of magic missile[/I] launching random bolts across the room (easily destroyed, but salvaging the magic item requires more effort), or maybe there's a poison gas trap emanating from the visor of a sixth helmed horror that appears to be an inanimate statue until tampered with. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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