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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8934123" data-attributes="member: 29398">As 5e by both RAW and RAI really isn't all that lethal, doubling the lethality - while sounding grim - might not mean very much in practice.Well, I posit you can incentivize both by having a system where characters have serious weaknesses along with their strengths, thus soft-requiring the presence of other characters such that they fill in each other's gaps.  Due to this interdependence, the whole becomes more than the sum of the parts, meaning teamwork is often a better path to survival - both of the party and of each character in it - than individualism.Yeah, we're very different: I got bored with the heroes always winning when I was about ten.If that's how you've set the story up, cool.  Me, I'll usually have an underlying story or two like that on the go but I'm not married to them; if the players/PCs decide to turn their backs on such a story or to join the enemy or whatever then so be it: that's what I'll run.Whcih strikes me as odd, because IMO in-party teamwork's biggest enemy is do-it-all-themselves characters who have no weaknesses (and thus don't need to inter-depend with anyone else) and thus much less need for a party around them; and the exception you refer to was by design the best (worst) of all when it came to making do-it-all characters using the right combinations of multi-classes and feats.  The TSR editions, where niche protection was considerably stronger, characters often had glaring weaknesses that couldn't be covered off with feats, and where multi-classing was clearly suboptimal, were IMO far better at promoting teamwork at the design level - even if it didn't always come off that way at the table level.Which in many ways is fairly realistic.  Parties are usually (I hope!) made up of independent free-thinking people, they don't have a coach or a sergeant-major standing over them preaching team unity or regimental honour and telling them to play/fight till they drop; and absent this, when real danger appears self-preservation becomes a primary motivator.</blockquote>

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