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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 8935194" data-attributes="member: 29398">Er...isn't that what investment in a story is - something of non-material value that has value only for itself?A purpose which I support in principle; the devil is clearly in the details of how this purpose might best be accomplished.A few things here:First, thank the gods I don't have to worry about one aspect here: in my game "concentration" isn't a thing except for a very few spells, mostly illusions  Result: all the buff spells in my game are fire-and-forget, meaning a caster can buff an ally and still contribute directly to the battle.Second, I've played many a Big Stupid Fighter in my day and as long as there's something in front of me to whale away on I don't feel left out.  This points to a bigger issue, though: if a player is "feeling left out" just because a character isn't doing as much damage as another, IMO that's a player problem.  Not everyone's contribution is going to be equal.  Ever.Intentionally so, as true-loss conditions (or, put another way, mechanical loss conditions) apply reasonably equally across most if not all tables: a character death at my table has much the same effect as a character death at most other tables, etc.  Therefore, they serve as a useful point of comparison.However, what I call soft-loss conditions - you detail some here - don't apply anywhere near equally across all tables.  At one table giving in to dark temptation might be seen as a major loss condition while at another it's utterly irrelevant.  Moral losses don't exist when there's no morals to begin with; and if reputation doesn't matter to you then any loss (or gain) of it is immaterial.  Etc.Trying to frame loss conditions as, to put a generic term to it, "loss of heroism" fails to take into account the many tables where heroism just doesn't matter, and thus also fails as a useful point of comparison.It's a while since I looked at my 4e books but I seem to recall it offered (almost?) unlimited multiclassing, chooseable feats, and additive levels.  Boom - by 4th level I've got an F-1 C-1 W-1 R-1 jack of all trades who can do anything, even if not as well as some of his more specialized friends.In 0e that was true, I forgot Thief was a later addition.  But fairly early in 1e - I think it's even in the Dragon issue whose look-back is currently on the site's front page - Gygax went on record as saying non-Thieves simply couldn't do that stuff. (it's bollocks, mind, but that was the mindset).  Personally, I have it that anyone can try (often at rather poor odds!) to sneak or hide or listen at doors or even pick a pocket, but specialized stuff such as removing/disarming traps or picking locks does require a trained professional.Clerics can take hits to a point but after very low level become kinda crap at giving them out.  I know this from currently-ongoing experience, I'm playing a C-12 right now and while his AC is great his damage-dealing is - well, let's just say his usual tactic is just to hang on and soak attacks for long enough that a real Fighter can get there and bail him out. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> (in 4e terms he'd be a full-on Defender, at least in playstyle)Their direct-damage spells aren't much to write home about until 5th-level spells come online and they get Flamestrike.This is why I'm such a fan of Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings.  They get it.  The world is, with some very few exceptions, an ugly place - far uglier and way less forgiving than our modern-day real world - and all we're trying to do is survive in it.That's the vibe I'm going for, and it's my default assumption of any game world until-unless shown otherwise.Thing is, I really don't care whether or not the PCs are (or become) murderhobos or anarchists or any of the rest of that stuff - other than the in-game "deleterious consequences" piece, which also happens the only one of those pieces legitimately under my control as DM.  There's some limits around what a character can be in terms of species, class, etc.; but once it's in play it's yours to play any way you want, preferably doing exactly and only what the character would do and following where that character leads; and if consequences arisign from those actions are warranted, they too will try to happen.</blockquote>

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