Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Making each ability score count (Ideas)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="mkill" data-source="post: 5811932" data-attributes="member: 55985"><p>It's a stated goal of 5E that ability score should matter and be useful. </p><p></p><p>So how to make each stat matter in 5E? - Requirement</p><p></p><p>The basic idea is that you still have one main stat that your attacks and damage key off. For your other stats, you can put them as you like. Depending on where you put your good scores, you'll have different advantages, and you'll have a different style within your class.</p><p></p><p>There shouldn't be a real dump stat in the sense that even if you put an 18 there, there is no way to benefit from it. On the other hand, having a low stat in anything except your main attack stat should be a hindrance from time to time, but not so crippling that you can't function in a party.</p><p></p><p>On top of that, each stat should be useful in some way in all of the three main areas of the game - combat, exploration, and social interaction.</p><p></p><p>- Main stat -</p><p></p><p>Each class has a stat that gives a bonus to hit and damage for all attacks. Str for fighters, Dex for Rogues, Int for Wizards, Wis for Clerics...</p><p></p><p>One stat means that no PC should have to split attacks between stats. For example, if Paladin melee attacks (mundane or infused with divine) are based on Strength, and attack spells are based Charisma, they should get a feature for free to move either the attacks to Charisma or the spells to Strength. This should not be a feat tax. You could include both options to allow both Str Paladins and Cha Paladins. </p><p></p><p>Avoid the 4E mistake that weapon user classes don't get to use their best stat with all melee attacks for free. I'm looking at you, Rogue, Chaladin, Battlemind, Swordmage...</p><p></p><p></p><p>- Ability scores across game elements -</p><p></p><p>Social Interaction</p><p></p><p>Str: Intimidation</p><p>Dex: Entertain with sleight of hand (?)</p><p>Con: hour-long meetings (?)</p><p>Int: logical argumentation</p><p>Wis: Sense emotion, read body language, appeal to emotion</p><p>Cha: Impress, charm, bluff</p><p></p><p>Traditionally, Charisma dominated here. It should still be useful, but I'd like to break the situation where the PC with the high Cha does all the talking. It's a bit of a stretch for Dex and Con, but it's no problem to make the other stats count.</p><p></p><p>Exploration</p><p></p><p>Str: Kick doors, climb, swim, raw muscle, carry</p><p>Dex: Balance, dodge dangers, acrobatics</p><p>Con: Endurance</p><p>Int: Solve riddles, book knowledge</p><p>Wis: Common sense, intuition, perception</p><p>Cha: Handle animals</p><p></p><p>Exploration is probably the one area where each stat traditionally has its niche. Not much need for change here.</p><p></p><p>- Personalizing combat and magic styles with ability scores -</p><p></p><p>Traditionally, fighters relied on raw muscle (Str) and endurance (Con). Agility was slightly useful, but only if you wanted to use ranged attacks or wear light armor. But success in a melee duel also depends on clever tactics (Int), intuitive reaction (Wis), and displaying an air of confidence (Cha). </p><p></p><p>Same goes for Wizards. Wouldn't physical strength make you better at forceful spells? Dexterity give better aim? Endurance give extra magic reserves?</p><p></p><p>How do let a fighter benefit mechanically from high Int, Wis or Cha? How can a Wizard benefit from Str, Dex or Con?</p><p></p><p>Well, you could make the attack stat an average of all ability scores. But cumbersome at the table, and doesn't really make the agile fighter feel different from the smart one.</p><p></p><p>High stats should give you certain bonuses to certain things.</p><p></p><p>Rules Examples: </p><p>* Wizards add their Str modifier (if positive) to the DC to escape from a Bigby's Grasping Hand spell.</p><p>* Clerics can use Wisdom or Dexterity+2 to hit with Flame Strike.</p><p>* Sorcerers get extra spells per day for high Con (in addition to Cha)</p><p>* Fighters who use the Aid Another maneuver to help an ally's attack also grant a bonus to damage equal to their Int bonus.</p><p>* Rogues can add Wis to attack with a Riposte if they are missed by a melee attack</p><p>* After a successful Feint, add your Charisma bonus to damage</p><p></p><p>The exact placements of these in the rules depend on what works best and makes the most sense. They can be part of the standard combat rules (Aid Another example), part of the spell description (Bigby), a class feature (Con extra spells), or unlocked with a feat (Cha bonus after feint).</p><p></p><p>Game balance is achieved by the simple fact that you can't be good at all stats at the same time (unless you happen to roll for stats and roll insanely well). It's an opportunity cost: If you raise Str as a Wizard to be better at Bigby spells, you can't raise Charisma to become better at Enchantment spells.</p><p></p><p>All should come in the form of a bonus, penalties should be avoided. Bad stats are already crippling through ability score checks. There is no need to make them even more limiting.</p><p></p><p>- Ideas on which stat should make you better at what -</p><p></p><p>Combat</p><p></p><p>Str: hit/damage with heavy weapons, push / pull / throw enemies, wear heavy armor, block with a shield, resist push / pull / throw</p><p>Dex: move around the battlefield, hit/damage with light and ranged weapons, initiative</p><p>Con: soak damage, resist poisons, avoid fatigue in long fights</p><p>Int: Tactics - use terrain, set ambush, flank; spot weaknesses; aid another</p><p>Wis: notice ambushes, read enemy body language, intuitive riposte / reaction</p><p>Cha: impress with flashy maneuvers, action points; bluff, feint, combat tricks</p><p></p><p>Spellcasting</p><p></p><p>Str: Force spells, extra damage, pushing, pulling, telekinesis</p><p>Dex: target ray spells, shape zones, fine magic manipulation</p><p>Con: endurance casting, energy reserves, blood magic</p><p>Int: magic theory, knowledge of formulas, analysis spells</p><p>Wis: Intuitive magic, mind reading, healing, nature summons</p><p>Cha: illusions, mental manipulation, demonic summons</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mkill, post: 5811932, member: 55985"] It's a stated goal of 5E that ability score should matter and be useful. So how to make each stat matter in 5E? - Requirement The basic idea is that you still have one main stat that your attacks and damage key off. For your other stats, you can put them as you like. Depending on where you put your good scores, you'll have different advantages, and you'll have a different style within your class. There shouldn't be a real dump stat in the sense that even if you put an 18 there, there is no way to benefit from it. On the other hand, having a low stat in anything except your main attack stat should be a hindrance from time to time, but not so crippling that you can't function in a party. On top of that, each stat should be useful in some way in all of the three main areas of the game - combat, exploration, and social interaction. - Main stat - Each class has a stat that gives a bonus to hit and damage for all attacks. Str for fighters, Dex for Rogues, Int for Wizards, Wis for Clerics... One stat means that no PC should have to split attacks between stats. For example, if Paladin melee attacks (mundane or infused with divine) are based on Strength, and attack spells are based Charisma, they should get a feature for free to move either the attacks to Charisma or the spells to Strength. This should not be a feat tax. You could include both options to allow both Str Paladins and Cha Paladins. Avoid the 4E mistake that weapon user classes don't get to use their best stat with all melee attacks for free. I'm looking at you, Rogue, Chaladin, Battlemind, Swordmage... - Ability scores across game elements - Social Interaction Str: Intimidation Dex: Entertain with sleight of hand (?) Con: hour-long meetings (?) Int: logical argumentation Wis: Sense emotion, read body language, appeal to emotion Cha: Impress, charm, bluff Traditionally, Charisma dominated here. It should still be useful, but I'd like to break the situation where the PC with the high Cha does all the talking. It's a bit of a stretch for Dex and Con, but it's no problem to make the other stats count. Exploration Str: Kick doors, climb, swim, raw muscle, carry Dex: Balance, dodge dangers, acrobatics Con: Endurance Int: Solve riddles, book knowledge Wis: Common sense, intuition, perception Cha: Handle animals Exploration is probably the one area where each stat traditionally has its niche. Not much need for change here. - Personalizing combat and magic styles with ability scores - Traditionally, fighters relied on raw muscle (Str) and endurance (Con). Agility was slightly useful, but only if you wanted to use ranged attacks or wear light armor. But success in a melee duel also depends on clever tactics (Int), intuitive reaction (Wis), and displaying an air of confidence (Cha). Same goes for Wizards. Wouldn't physical strength make you better at forceful spells? Dexterity give better aim? Endurance give extra magic reserves? How do let a fighter benefit mechanically from high Int, Wis or Cha? How can a Wizard benefit from Str, Dex or Con? Well, you could make the attack stat an average of all ability scores. But cumbersome at the table, and doesn't really make the agile fighter feel different from the smart one. High stats should give you certain bonuses to certain things. Rules Examples: * Wizards add their Str modifier (if positive) to the DC to escape from a Bigby's Grasping Hand spell. * Clerics can use Wisdom or Dexterity+2 to hit with Flame Strike. * Sorcerers get extra spells per day for high Con (in addition to Cha) * Fighters who use the Aid Another maneuver to help an ally's attack also grant a bonus to damage equal to their Int bonus. * Rogues can add Wis to attack with a Riposte if they are missed by a melee attack * After a successful Feint, add your Charisma bonus to damage The exact placements of these in the rules depend on what works best and makes the most sense. They can be part of the standard combat rules (Aid Another example), part of the spell description (Bigby), a class feature (Con extra spells), or unlocked with a feat (Cha bonus after feint). Game balance is achieved by the simple fact that you can't be good at all stats at the same time (unless you happen to roll for stats and roll insanely well). It's an opportunity cost: If you raise Str as a Wizard to be better at Bigby spells, you can't raise Charisma to become better at Enchantment spells. All should come in the form of a bonus, penalties should be avoided. Bad stats are already crippling through ability score checks. There is no need to make them even more limiting. - Ideas on which stat should make you better at what - Combat Str: hit/damage with heavy weapons, push / pull / throw enemies, wear heavy armor, block with a shield, resist push / pull / throw Dex: move around the battlefield, hit/damage with light and ranged weapons, initiative Con: soak damage, resist poisons, avoid fatigue in long fights Int: Tactics - use terrain, set ambush, flank; spot weaknesses; aid another Wis: notice ambushes, read enemy body language, intuitive riposte / reaction Cha: impress with flashy maneuvers, action points; bluff, feint, combat tricks Spellcasting Str: Force spells, extra damage, pushing, pulling, telekinesis Dex: target ray spells, shape zones, fine magic manipulation Con: endurance casting, energy reserves, blood magic Int: magic theory, knowledge of formulas, analysis spells Wis: Intuitive magic, mind reading, healing, nature summons Cha: illusions, mental manipulation, demonic summons [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Making each ability score count (Ideas)
Top