Making Epic/Paragon monsters Heroic

Given that, for various reasons, 4e combat significantly increases in length once you hit Paragon (and worse when you hit Epic), could one concievably reduce Epic and Paragon monsters to Heroic level, just by adjusting the to hits/damage using the Monster Builder?

What would mess that up?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I don't recommend doing this. The only experience I have with this came when my DM tried to turn a 14th level creature into a 6th level creature. He mostly adjusted the defenses, attack bonuses, hit points and damage correctly (he failed to adjust the damage from one power, though) but he didn't change what the creature's powers actually DID - just how likely they were to hit and how much damage they dealt. In this case, the creature had an at-will power that damaged and immobilized PCs on a hit, created difficult terrain, and dealt damage to any creature that began its turn in the zone. That was an at-will power, which was just way too much for a 6th-level creature to have. (Details of this experience are here on my blog.)

If you absolutely have to level down a monster by 10 levels or more, you'll have to approach it as if it were a new monster from scratch in some ways - especially with powers. Level down its numbers, then compare its powers to those of monsters with a similar role and a similar level. Personally, I would start with a monster of the level you want and then re-flavor it to be more like the high-level monster you're looking for.
 
Last edited:

"math" wise, you'd have it right. But some of the rider effects on the attacks (such as some conditions, zones, etc) are not appropriate for all levels.


My general guideline is to adjust a monster no more than 4 levels. But that's just my own guideline based on how I see things go with my particular group.

For instance, generally, petrificaton doesn't appear until late heroic tier. and things like domination attacks might be at will abilities on high level creatures but a recharge 6 ability on heroic teir monsters.

Also, some monster effects that cause changes in terrain are 'tolerable' at higher levels because at paragon and epic the PCs have a greater chance of being able to fly/go invisible/teleport often/shift multiple spaces/etc. But by putting those same terrain altering effects at lower levels, you pretty much put road blocks for the PCs that they don't yet have the powers to circumvent.

Also, later level monsters have inherent modes of their own movement, like good flight, phasing, etc. heroic PCs will get frustrated as they have few ways to catch up with such creatures on a regular basis.

So, anyway... as said, math wise, you'd be fine. But it's the conditions and rider effects that come with the damage (conditions, condition inflicting recharge, zones, terrain alterations, the creatures movement modes) that would be out of sync

You could probably pick one or two and do it with careful consideration on effects, conditions, and recharge rates. But I wouldn't suggest just doing a sweeping change on all epic and paragon monsters.
 






To some extent, I think all experiential aspects of the game change significantly depending on the synergy between DMs and players.

By and large, players are a generally competitive lot, especially those who weren't raised by the teamwork mindset fostered by 4E. To that end, they're always trying to out-build one another. Assuming the DM isn't even interested in trying to 'beat' the players, so much as challenge them to think about the plot situations -- ('why did this bug-lady kill my rakshasha arch-nemesis?' 'why are these newborn twins suddenly 17 years old and wielding blood magic?') -- then it is entirely possible for combat to move faster in higher levels, which is my experience in one of my girlfriend's campaigns.

That aside, I do believe it would be a mistake to try to bring down Paragon level monsters down to heroic levels, simply because even when you reduce the math, they remain highly challenging due to the number of things they can do ('minor, move, standard, reaction, aura!') Imagine, if you tried making a low-level kobold into a level 18 "Dire Kobold." It'd have massive hitpoints but it wouldn't have many of the special powers that paragon monsters usually have to save their asses before experienced PCs.
 

That aside, I do believe it would be a mistake to try to bring down Paragon level monsters down to heroic levels, simply because even when you reduce the math, they remain highly challenging due to the number of things they can do ('minor, move, standard, reaction, aura!') Imagine, if you tried making a low-level kobold into a level 18 "Dire Kobold." It'd have massive hitpoints but it wouldn't have many of the special powers that paragon monsters usually have to save their asses before experienced PCs.
Depends on the monster really. Some monsters (at least in the first MM) in Paragon tier are quite "simple" or at least straight forward, without a lot of frills.

I picked at random from the MM the Archons. The only one that would be considered being problematic would be the Ice Archon Frostshaper; it has an aura that grants allies regen 10 and makes everything in the aura 5 diff terrain. The only remotely complicated creature compared to that is the Fire Archon Ash Disciple (20 Artillery), which has 3 encounter powers, a death burst, and a limited at will teleport. The rest only have 1-3 powers (some of which only have 1) and those powers are fairly limited (one attack, one encounter, and combat advantage for instance).

This also isn't unique to the MM1. I opened the MM2 randomly to Demons. The Pod Demon (15th level elite artillery) has 1 minor action, several standards it can do (some that are recharge), a special at will move, and it spawns its own minions. The Nycademon (22 Skirmisher) only has 2 attacks really - its basic can be a double attack, and it can swoop and snatch a target (and drag them away). Not too complicated.

Many paragon tier monsters are "Dire Kobold"-like. Just because they are a higher tier, a healthy number do not have anything "special". For every monster with special "Save your ass from the PCs" power that paragon tiers get that you can find, I can probably find one that lacks it.
 
Last edited:

Pets & Sidekicks

Remove ads

Top