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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tristol" data-source="post: 2154818" data-attributes="member: 19520">First, let me preface this with 'I'm not a numbers person, but...', and then add that I'm going to stick my two cents in anyway, only because, well, it interests me. Having gotten that out of the way, here's the numbers I feel comfortable arguing for and their reasoning.First, a fox is more likely closer to a cat than a wolf, at least given their physical stats. Unfortunately, the only real cat-like guardinals out there are the leonals, which are a bit larger than your average small wild-cat type creature. There's a lot of argument that can be made about what stats should like where and which would be more appropriate to a fox than others. I rely on this order: Dex, Int, Cha, Wis, Str/Con. Obviously a fox is a bit more dextrous than your average canid/felid, so should have the boost to dex. The int would be the next likely candidate as without brains, all that extra litheness won't do you any good. Charisma would also be up there as well, given the overall look and air with which they carry themselves. Wis would be lower as it tends to suffer at the ends of instinct, and wisdom would seldom be attributed to quick people who need to make fast decisions. And finally Str/Con, which is a tossup in which order you put them. Foxes have some rather strong jaws, and powerful legs, but they are probably by far the weaker of the bunch. Con would likely fall above Strength if you count Con as inclusive of stamina. Foxes will outrun (or try to) any hunting party sent after them, so it makes a bit of sense. Having covered that ground, I'd look somewhere around the lines of the following for stats: Dex 23, Int 20, Cha 18, Wis 16, Con 15, Str 14. It gives the points to dex, int, and cha, but brings the Wis/Con down to more high-average numbers, and the str down to slightly above average. We are talking about some fairly beefy critters in guardinals, so the high stats make sense (look at the lupinal/leonal for comparison). If we're doing point totals, you're looking at 106 versus the 105 for the lupinal, so you're close to even on that regard.Hit dice are one of those things you'll just have to see what works. We're not talking large canid here, so obviously lupinal hit dice are a bit overpowered for it. Probably 8d4+4, or somewhere around there.AC is relatively easy, you're looking at about +3 natural armor, and +6 from the dex, so a +9 is about where you are, give or take. Base attack somewhere around a +5 or +6 I'd imagine, given that they're not all that confrontational if they can avoid it. Attacks would be similar to the lupinal, two claws (+10 at 1d4+4) and a bite (+7 at 1d6+3). F/R would be 5/5.Specials would likely include SLA's, and the trip ability. Qualities of course would be celestial traits, DR 10/+1 (old 3e numbers), outsider, and scent, and likely improved init.Saves. This is another sticking point. You're probably looking at Fort +6, Ref +13, Will +10. Those are numbers based off the relevant stats, modified slightly for their purposes. Rather close to the lupinal numbers, but not quite the same.Qualities are already covered, however I'd add alertness to that. Skills would likely be close to the lupinal, except I'd give a higher hide, listen, and move silent score (+2 to each perhaps), at the cost of climb (grey foxes are the only real climbers) and concentration. Organization is likely solitary or pair. Rare to find in any noticable group except immediate family groups. Now comes the tricky part, without play-testing any of this, and using my own best judgements, I'd have to say that the rest is somewhat sketchy. CR likely placed at a 6. This particular creature isn't as confrontational as a lupinal would be, but makes up for it in other areas, hence why it warrants a slightly higher CR. Level adjustment is rather tricky. You're looking at 8 hit dice for the creature, and possibly another for some of the abilities and extras that are tossed in there. So I'd have to say somewhere along the lines of 8-10.I think that covers the majority of it. And considering that a fox is certainly not as confrontational as the rest of the creatures out there, it's likely that it'd fall in to the wizard/rogue slot rather well. The stats and abilities accentuate that, and make it worthwhile to play. Level adjustment is a bit high, but there's not much you can do about that, unless you can reason a lower adjustment for an 8hd creature. I personally think it'd work, but I can't necessarily say for certain without giving it a try.</blockquote>

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