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<blockquote data-quote="Gez" data-source="post: 2155462" data-attributes="member: 1328"><p>You probably meant 4d8+8. Outsider HD are 8-siders, and with Con 15 and four HD, the bonus would be +8 (+2 bonus x 4 HD). (See below for the recap.)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Base attack and saves depend on HD and ability scores, so the BAB would be +4 (with a total melee attack score of +6, and a ranged/finesse attack score of +10). All saves are good and will thus have a base bonus of +4 (2+half HD). Fortitude +6 (+2 from Con), Reflex +10 (+6 from Dex), Will +7 (+3 from Wis). You can give it the feats Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes to pump it to Ref +12 and Will +9, more in line with your proposal.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>In revised 3e, the DR would become 5/evil or silver.</p><p></p><p>With 4 HD, it would have two feats. These are, it was said, the improved saves. Improved Init could be tacked on as a bonus racial feat.</p><p></p><p>Now, skills. Outsiders are skill monkeys, and this one has a +5 bonus from Int. That's (8+5)x(4+3) skill points (91), with a maximum of 7 ranks in any skill (then ability bonuses, racial bonuses, synergy bonuses, etc. could turn a 7 rank into an impressive final modifier).</p><p></p><p>To make things simple, let's select either 13 skills that will be maxed out; or 12 skills that will be maxed out and 7 skills that will have just one single rank (in order to be able to use them if they're trained-only).</p><p></p><p>So, the concept was rogue/wizard -- a celestial arcane trickster. So, we'll look at the Arcane Trickster class skill list as a start:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">The arcane trickster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).</p><p></p><p>That's 23 skill plus the three skill tree (crafts, knowledges, professions). Let's trim!</p><p>Appraise: OK (1)</p><p>Balance: No need. Can be used untrained, and they have such a high Dex bonus anyway it's not that useful to put ranks there. Especially since guardinals can always walk on all fours to get the stability bonus.</p><p>Bluff: Definitely. (2)</p><p>Climb: No.</p><p>Concentration: Needed. (3)</p><p>Craft: OK for Alchemy. (4)</p><p>Decipher Script: OK (5)</p><p>Diplomacy: OK (6)</p><p>Disable Device: No</p><p>Disguise: No (Maybe? -1)</p><p>Escape Artist: No (Maybe? -2)</p><p>Gather Information: No</p><p>Hide: Yes (7)</p><p>Jump: No</p><p>Knowledge: At least two knowledges are needed: Arcana and The Planes. (9)</p><p>Listen: Yes (10)</p><p>Move Silently: No (Maybe? -3)</p><p>Open Lock: No</p><p>Profession: None of them, professions are a mortal's worry.</p><p>Sense Motive: No</p><p>Search: No</p><p>Sleight of Hand: No (Maybe? -4)</p><p>Speak Language: No (by virtue of high Int, already know 6 of them, plus the Guardinal trait of speaking with animals).</p><p>Spellcraft: Needed (11)</p><p>Spot: Yes (12)</p><p>Swim: No</p><p>Tumble: No (Maybe? -5)</p><p>Use Rope: No (Maybe? -6)</p><p></p><p>A skill that isn't in the AT's list, but which would be fine there anyway, is Use Magic Device. That's a seventh Maybe. Alright, there we have selected 12 skills to max out, and seven single-rankers. That's my proposal anyway.</p><p></p><p>SRD rulesy stuff:</p><p style="margin-left: 20px"><strong>Outsider Type:</strong> An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Features:</em> An outsider has the following features.</p> <ul style="margin-left: 20px"> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">8-sided Hit Dice.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.</li> </ul> <p style="margin-left: 20px"><em>Traits:</em> An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry). <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Darkvision out to 60 feet.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.</li> </ul> </p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Gez, post: 2155462, member: 1328"] You probably meant 4d8+8. Outsider HD are 8-siders, and with Con 15 and four HD, the bonus would be +8 (+2 bonus x 4 HD). (See below for the recap.) Base attack and saves depend on HD and ability scores, so the BAB would be +4 (with a total melee attack score of +6, and a ranged/finesse attack score of +10). All saves are good and will thus have a base bonus of +4 (2+half HD). Fortitude +6 (+2 from Con), Reflex +10 (+6 from Dex), Will +7 (+3 from Wis). You can give it the feats Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes to pump it to Ref +12 and Will +9, more in line with your proposal. In revised 3e, the DR would become 5/evil or silver. With 4 HD, it would have two feats. These are, it was said, the improved saves. Improved Init could be tacked on as a bonus racial feat. Now, skills. Outsiders are skill monkeys, and this one has a +5 bonus from Int. That's (8+5)x(4+3) skill points (91), with a maximum of 7 ranks in any skill (then ability bonuses, racial bonuses, synergy bonuses, etc. could turn a 7 rank into an impressive final modifier). To make things simple, let's select either 13 skills that will be maxed out; or 12 skills that will be maxed out and 7 skills that will have just one single rank (in order to be able to use them if they're trained-only). So, the concept was rogue/wizard -- a celestial arcane trickster. So, we'll look at the Arcane Trickster class skill list as a start: [indent]The arcane trickster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).[/indent] That's 23 skill plus the three skill tree (crafts, knowledges, professions). Let's trim! Appraise: OK (1) Balance: No need. Can be used untrained, and they have such a high Dex bonus anyway it's not that useful to put ranks there. Especially since guardinals can always walk on all fours to get the stability bonus. Bluff: Definitely. (2) Climb: No. Concentration: Needed. (3) Craft: OK for Alchemy. (4) Decipher Script: OK (5) Diplomacy: OK (6) Disable Device: No Disguise: No (Maybe? -1) Escape Artist: No (Maybe? -2) Gather Information: No Hide: Yes (7) Jump: No Knowledge: At least two knowledges are needed: Arcana and The Planes. (9) Listen: Yes (10) Move Silently: No (Maybe? -3) Open Lock: No Profession: None of them, professions are a mortal's worry. Sense Motive: No Search: No Sleight of Hand: No (Maybe? -4) Speak Language: No (by virtue of high Int, already know 6 of them, plus the Guardinal trait of speaking with animals). Spellcraft: Needed (11) Spot: Yes (12) Swim: No Tumble: No (Maybe? -5) Use Rope: No (Maybe? -6) A skill that isn't in the AT's list, but which would be fine there anyway, is Use Magic Device. That's a seventh Maybe. Alright, there we have selected 12 skills to max out, and seven single-rankers. That's my proposal anyway. SRD rulesy stuff: [indent][b]Outsider Type:[/b] An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence. [i]Features:[/i] An outsider has the following features. [list][*]8-sided Hit Dice.[*]Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).[*]Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.[*]Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.[/list][i]Traits:[/i] An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).[List][*]Darkvision out to 60 feet.[*]Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.[*]Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.[*]Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.[*]Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.[/list] [/indent] [/QUOTE]
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