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<blockquote data-quote="mmadsen" data-source="post: 5767914" data-attributes="member: 1645">We're definitely talking past each other, because I have not said that blackpowder weapons need different rules.Here's what I have said:Again, what is it about blackpowder weapons that you think I'm misunderstanding?Again, we're talking past each other, because I've been quite explicit that real guns aren't hyper-lethal, and the solution is not to make guns do more damage in the game.The problem, as far as realism is concerned, is not that guns are insufficiently deadly; it's that they can't kill in one shot. (The only time they can kill with one shot is when the target is &quot;weak&quot; enough to be guaranteed to die in two shots.)The distribution is wrong.&nbsp; Death shouldn't arrive on the nth shot, with no deaths on the first shot and death guaranteed by the n+1th shot.That's wrong for any weapon, but it's especially jarring for one-shot weapons.&nbsp; It breaks expectations -- both realistic expectations and action-story expectations -- when, say, a hold-up is a guaranteed non-issue, or a duel can't kill either party, or a hunter can't take down common game, or a sniper can't take out an officer.In other areas where this problem is too jarring, we add coup-de-grace rules, or sneak attack bonus damage, or iaijutsu damage.&nbsp; I don't think those are a perfect fit for ordinary gun-fights, but they point to some other places where hit points and expectations don't match up well.The issue doesn't have to revolve around gritty realism at all.&nbsp; The same issues stand out if we set our expectations by Hollywood action movies.This isn't some gun-nut debate about .45 ACP vs. hollowpoint 9mm +P+ loads.&nbsp; This is about how what happens in the game world doesn't feel right to perfectly normal people playing the game.&nbsp; They may not be able to put their finger on exactly what's &quot;unrealistic&quot; about it, but it feels wrong.Of course there's a mechanic that could duplicate that.&nbsp; A simple save-or-die mechanic would duplicate that.&nbsp; It might have other problems, but it would duplicate that perfectly.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="mmadsen, post: 5767914, member: 1645"] We're definitely talking past each other, because I have not said that blackpowder weapons need different rules. Here's what I [i]have[/i] said: Again, what is it about blackpowder weapons that you think I'm misunderstanding? Again, we're talking past each other, because I've been quite explicit that real guns aren't hyper-lethal, and the solution is not to make guns do more damage in the game. The problem, as far as realism is concerned, is [i]not[/i] that guns are insufficiently deadly; it's that they [i]can't[/i] kill in one shot. (The only time they can kill with one shot is when the target is "weak" enough to be guaranteed to die in two shots.) The [i]distribution[/i] is wrong. Death shouldn't arrive on the [i]n[/i]th shot, with no deaths on the first shot and death guaranteed by the [i]n+1[/i]th shot. That's wrong for any weapon, but it's especially jarring for one-shot weapons. It breaks expectations -- both realistic expectations and action-story expectations -- when, say, a hold-up is a guaranteed non-issue, or a duel can't kill either party, or a hunter can't take down common game, or a sniper can't take out an officer. In other areas where this problem is too jarring, we add coup-de-grace rules, or sneak attack bonus damage, or [i]iaijutsu[/i] damage. I don't think those are a perfect fit for ordinary gun-fights, but they point to some other places where hit points and expectations don't match up well. The issue doesn't have to revolve around gritty realism at all. The same issues stand out if we set our expectations by Hollywood action movies. This isn't some gun-nut debate about .45 ACP vs. hollowpoint 9mm +P+ loads. This is about how what happens in the game world doesn't feel right to perfectly normal people playing the game. They may not be able to put their finger on exactly what's "unrealistic" about it, but it feels wrong. Of course there's a mechanic that could duplicate that. A simple save-or-die mechanic would duplicate that. It might have other problems, but it would duplicate [i]that[/i] perfectly. [/QUOTE]

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