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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Reynard" data-source="post: 3830992" data-attributes="member: 467">I continue to find it interesting that most people are suggesting a PC inherent power increase to match the effects of gear, rather than a reassessment of challenge difficulties to take into account for the PCs lower bonus totals.  Note, by the way, that I am not suggestinga  complete lack of items, but rather the removal of wealth-by-level and forgoing the whole "big six" mentality.Let's look at an adult red dragon (CR 15) vs a group of 12th level PCs.  (+3 CR vs APL is a good rating for a BBEG encounter, I think.)The Dragon's AC is 29, versus the front line fighter's likely +16 or 18 bonus (+12 BAB, plsu +4 from strength or so, plus Weapon Focus).  That is a 40% chance to hit for the front liner, prior to spell buffs and the like.  Now, that same fighter with a strength item and a powerful magic sword brings his bonus up to the +20 to +25 range, which is a huge shift in ability to hit.On the flip side, the dragon has a +31 to hit, against an AC of 20-ish for full plate and a shield, without augmentation.  No contest.  Even magic items, though, only bring the PC's AC up to maybe 25 at 12th level, unless the character is a turtler in which case you might garner a total of +4 or +5 from feats and other specific AC related abilities.  In no case does the dragon have a hard time hitting.The dragons saves are +18 Fort/+13 Ref/+17 Will vs DCs in the range of 18 to 21 or so (5th level spell, +4 int bonus, + some feats to build it up).  Throw in an int item and a metamgaic rod, though, and at least the lightning bolts have a decent change of doing damage.  Except, of course, for the SR, which is a 30-40% buffer for the dragon.The dragon take a lot of hurting with 253 hit points. If the wizard averages 33% of his Lightning Bolt potential (average dice rolls and then half that again half the time), that is 20 points of damage a round for 7 rounds.  140.  over those same 7 rounds, the unaugmented (except for a +1 sword) warrior is going to do 10 points of damage or so a round -- he can't power attack, because the hit probability isn't great, but he's got a decent strength, he is going to hit maybe 1/2 the time, and he can keep going until he's down.  The rogue is actually a more effective combatant in this case; the flanking bonus makes up for the difference in BAB and the rogue is doing 7d6 (light weapon + sneak attack) vs the fighter types 3d6+6ish (greatsword + strength + weapon spec). The cleric actually suddenly becomes the most important PC in this kind of battle, because without magical gear, the clerics buff spells are the only thing that can really push the other characters over the edge.The dragon is doing a ridiculous amount of damage every round.  No PC has an AC to stop the dragon's attack bonus, so it can conceivably full attack every round for about 80 points of damage (basic Huge dragon damage, +11 strength damage bonus).  Assuming the 12th level barbarian has a decent con, it still only takes 2 rounds to kill him outright.  if the dragon breathes agaon, with an average of 60 hp damage and a save DC of 26, only the rogue PC is living through it -- everyone else has abysmal saves and only te fighter types have enough hit points to take it... maybe.  One round of hitting everyone with the breath weapon and one round of divvying up a full attack should result in a TPK.  Once you factor in cloaks of resistance and the like, though, the PCs survivability increases dramatically.However, I think all this raw power in the dragon is a function of the assumed level of the PCs with gear, rather than vice versa.  1E dragons were essentially pushovers in compariosn -- 88 hit points and doing an average of 30 points of damage with a breath weapon -- and 2E dragons touchened up a bit versus PCs that didn't change a whole lot.  Evidence in stat blocks suggests that when they decided to CR dragons, they used the new level+gear paradigm in determining how badass the dragons should be.So, scaling back the dragon -- the BAB, the AC, the hit points and the SR and DC on the breath save --should be enough to make a moderately well equipped but not "wealth by level"ed party have an reasonable change of winning a similar encounter.(NOTE: most of the above is off the cuff with d20srd.org as my reference, so there's probably some holes in that argument.)</blockquote>

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