Making magic orthogonal

[Quartz]

Thinking out loud here, but the multiple magic progressions of d20 irk me.

Some classes have 4 levels (e.g. Paladin, Ranger), some have 8 (e.g. Bard), some have 9 (e.g. certain Prestige Classes), some have 10 (e.g. Cleric, Wizard). Plus Epic.

This causes anomalies where a 4th spell cast by a high-level Paladin or Ranger, which is fully equal to a high level spell cast by a mage or cleric, is much more easily negated. It also makes it very difficult indeed for a a Paladin to go Epic to manifest the super-dooper Holy Blade of Doom.

And then there are the multitude of different progressions.

Can we orthoganalise them all? I think so.

Let's start with the basic progression for primary casters (e.g. Wizard, Cleric), the basic progression for non-primary casters (Bard), and the rapid progression for prestige classes (Divine Crusader, Apostle of Peace) and work from there. We note that spontaneous casters get their spells 1 level later (Sorceror, Mystic, but Bard is an exception). We also note that all the 4-level progressions are divine in nature, or can be recast as such.

Here's my thought:

We turn to the base classes and give the player two options: full progression as per standard, or reduced progression as per bard (extend the table to Level 30 so we have L7 spells at 19th level, L8 at 22nd, L9 at 25th) in return for +1 HP per level and +4 SP per level. Then the player can choose to go for memorization or spontaneous casting. So a spontaneous caster with reduced progress would only get 9th level spells at 26th level, and then only if qualified for a bonus spell. Spells are redistributed across levels 0-9.

Note that this gives the GM for free a way of having a reduced-magic campain.

Next, we do away with the spellcasting capabilities of the basic Paladin and Ranger and remove their spellcasting to Prestige Classes. We recast the Assassin, Blackguard, Paladin, Ranger, etc spell lists to the full range of levels 0-9, and give them the Divine Crusader progression, starting at L0 - maybe stopping at 2 spells per level. Conveniently, this is one spell level per Prestige Class level. For example, the Ranger might have spells from the Animal and Plant domains. Invent domains as necessary: a Holy Liberator might have spells from a Freedom domain. Making the spells spontaneous delays all spells bar the lowest one level, as before.

OK, rip this to shreds! But note that this is only a kernel; there's a lot of work to do beyond what I've summarised, of course.

 

[Sound of Azure]

I'm interested to see where you go with this...

Minor quibble: Bards have 7 levels of spells, no? Probably just a typo, however.

 

[Quartz]

I'm interested to see where you go with this...

Minor quibble: Bards have 7 levels of spells, no? Probably just a typo, however.

Yes, a typo. I even put in bards progressing to 7th, 8th, and 9th level spells.

 

[Arkhandus]

I hardly understand what you're trying to do here. Or the point to it. But I don't see why martial characters would want or need high-level spells when they're supposed to be good at fighting, not experts at spellcasting. Those prestige classes that give access to all spell levels would have to suck in terms of fighting-ability progression, and wouldn't make sense for the paladin, ranger, and such. Also, why should a paladin or ranger be able to harness the highest, most potent forms of magic after only a brief prestige-class run, whereas a full-fledged cleric or druid has to dedicate twice as many casting-focused class levels to that same goal?

I frankly just don't see the point.

 

[Quartz]

I hardly understand what you're trying to do here. Or the point to it. But I don't see why martial characters would want or need high-level spells when they're supposed to be good at fighting, not experts at spellcasting.

A martial character wouldn't get access to all high level spells. It's correcting a disparity. Consider the spell Break Enchantment. It's a 4th level paladin spell, a 4th level bard spell, but 5th for clerics and wizards. So why not simply make it 5th for all of them? Consider the spell Holy Sword. It's another 4th level paladin spell. Were it a clerical spell, it would probably be 6th or 7th level, and possibly in the Glory domain. But as a 4th level spell it gets blocked by a Globe of Invulnerability. Your 14th level paladin's sword is rendered useless.

 

[RainOfSteel]

Some classes have 4 levels (e.g. Paladin, Ranger), some have 8 (e.g. Bard), some have 9 (e.g. certain Prestige Classes), some have 10 (e.g. Cleric, Wizard). Plus Epic.

I'll agree that classes have access to varying ranges of the total available ranges for divine and arcane spells.

This causes anomalies where a 4th spell cast by a high-level Paladin or Ranger, which is fully equal to a high level spell cast by a mage or cleric, is much more easily negated.

I disagree.

A 4th level spell is never equal to a "high level" spell, regardless of who casts it. Of course the 4th level spell is easier to negate.

 

[Spatzimaus]

And spells were never intended to be purely equal regardless of class. Druids, for instance, get all the various healing spells one spell level later than Clerics do (other than the 1st-level ones). Both are full divine spellcasters, but are they "equal" then? If each uses a 3rd-level slot, the Cleric's cure serious wounds will heal 50% more damage than the Druid's cure moderate wounds.

There are plenty of examples of spells that are different levels for Clerics vs. Wizards. Both of these are "full" spellcasting classes, and yet there's a discrepancy in effectiveness for these specific spells; having a lower spell level lets you get it that much faster and use it more often, but lowers the DC.
By the OP's logic, these should all be the same level.

Bottom line, Paladins' and Rangers' spells are SUPPOSED to be more easily negated, with less raw effect, than those of the "pure" casters. It's part of the design balance. Notice that Paladins get a few spells at level 4 that Clerics don't even get until level 5 (break enchantment and dispel chaos/evil)? It's clearly not just a slower progression.

 

[Vrecknidj]

It's funny. In 3e, the game became decidedly more digital- and algorithm-friendly, but certain aspects of the game didn't seem to properly get ported over from 2e into this new structure.

Once upon a time, every class had its own experience point progression table, there were all kinds of strange and confusing saving throw tables, and there was very little in terms of character-level-based, or experience-point-based balance.

Now, there's a huge push for balance (i.e. a 10th level rogue, a 10th level cleric, and an EL 10 critter are all kinda equivalent), but, some parts of the game that have been forced into this balance only remain in this balance by being forced into it.

Going for maximum orthogonalization (if I may make up a word) isn't a bad idea, and spells are a good place to start.

I've long thought that spell levels ought to mimic class levels. In other words, the core rules in the PHB, for wizards and clerics, ought to have spell levels not from 0 to 9, but from 1 to 20. A 15th level wizard can cast a 15th level spell, etc. All the spells have to get adjusted (i.e. a fireball is a 5th level spell in this format, but some current 3rd level spells are better than others, so do some of those become 6th level spells in the new format?).

This would allow us to do what's done with save and attack progressions. Have a true one-half or one-third, or two-thirds progression. So, a bard's spells might be two-thirds the bard's level (i.e. a 12th level cleric may be able to cast 12th level spells, but a 12th level bard can only cast 8th level spells, and a 12th level paladin only 4th level spells).

This also allows for simple progression into epic spells. It may alter the save DCs, but it doesn't have to. (That is, the new save DC rule becomes 10 + 1/2 spell level + ability mod.)

Dave

 

[starwed]

orthogonalization (if I may make up a word)

Denied!

 

[Quartz]

Notice that Paladins get a few spells at level 4 that Clerics don't even get until level 5 (break enchantment and dispel chaos/evil)?

And when does a paladin get 4th level spells? Vastly later. And all the paladin's spells are stopped by a Globe of Invulnerability.

Anyway, thanks for the comments.