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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mhacdebhandia" data-source="post: 1695709" data-attributes="member: 18832">This hasn't been true of D&D prestige classes for a very long time.The general attitude, amongst not only players but also writers and designers, is that the specialised training of a gameworld organisation is only one of the uses to which prestige classes can be put.For example, the Expanded Psionics Handbook takes the, in my opinion, sensible step of converting the old soulknife prestige class into a base class. The soulknife as a concept is pretty weak when looked at as the specialised training of an organisation, especially when one considers that the mechanics of the class followed the dead-end (in terms of game design, anyway) of "bonus powers" instead of adding effective levels of manifesting ability. The original descriptive text for the class doesn't even make mention of an organisation, except by way of a loose analogy to assassins.I think using prestige classes as the distinctive methods of in-game groups is a fine thing, but that is not, nor should it be, the be-all and end-all of their use.Anyway, this is an interesting thread. It's more common to see people suggesting the conversion of base classes into prestige classes - the paladin would be the canonical example, along with the bard (as was, indeed, done in Unearthed Arcana, albeit in 15-level form).I can see a case for expanding the void disciple prestige class to 20-level form; it's already a 13-level class, and rearranging things to include seven more levels wouldn't be hard. Like the paladin and bard prestige classes in Unearthed Arcana, it seems to me that James Wyatt was trying to make the void disciple into a class which characters would follow for the rest of their careers once they entered it (in line with the flavour of ishiken in Rokugan), but did so by expanding it over more than ten levels rather than by increasing the prerequisites to a level where characters would generally enter the class at 10th level or so.I'm not convinced that prestige classes necessarily need to fall into the 3-, 5-, or 10-level model suggested by the Dungeon Master's Guide advice on their design, but I do think that a consistent model would be a good thing. That is, one should either go for the suggested format, or rethink prestige classes as explicitly filling up the rest of one's pre-epic career and design them accordingly.One could always go for a best-of-both-worlds approach - the void disciple could be shortened to a 10-level prestige class by chopping off the top three levels and making a new prestige class explicitly designed as an attractive alternative to filling up one's last few pre-epic levels with more levels of the base class(es) one started with. Void master, or something - not an automatic choice for every void disciple, but one that they would want to think about.I think that, in general, one needs to think about the schtick of a prestige class and figure out whether or not it's a strong enough and unique enough concept to sustain a 20-level base class. For example, I would offer the samurai base class in Complete Warrior as a failure of design - this is not, to my mind, distinct enough from a fighter with a few specific feats to justify the existence of a whole base class. If you converted its Intimidation-based abilities into a feat chain, you could almost replicate the whole class using the fighter. By contrast, the samurai class from Oriental Adventures is, I think, distinct enough to justify being separated from the fighter (though the version in Rokugan by AEG is slightly better-designed and certainly fits the Legend of the Five Rings setting more).The assassin would be a pretty dull base class, for instance - but the geomancer is potentially distinct and interesting enough to justify a 20-level version, if it were written well. I think the difference hinges mainly on whether or not the prestige class represents a specialisation of skills and features possessed by base classes - as in the assassin's case - or a concept not well-represented by the core rules - like the geomancer.</blockquote>

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