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<blockquote data-quote="ExploderWizard" data-source="post: 4607796" data-attributes="member: 66434">Rules have certainly changed over time and some of that change has involved the adding of complexity to the rules. If adding some complexity brings depth and flavor to the game then it may be worth the price.&nbsp;1E AD&amp;D had some complex subsystems that were not needed in my opinion. 4E has built in core complexity with the same problem. &nbsp;The majority of people who think 4E is not a complex game may be looking at it through the &quot; rose colored glasses&quot; that came from playing 3E for years. 3E had rules for nearly everything, some good, and some not so good. 4E simplified a great many things often to the point of handwaving them away completely. I think the complexity of 4E has just been redistributed. &nbsp;The way I see it, the 4E design is prone to more complexity rather than less due to focus on built-in game balance. This will become more apparent as the splat books pile up. Trying to maintain this elusive balance will result in more complexity rather than less. Sure, rules for things like planar environments and other non-combat related things will get greatly simplified. Anything involving combat will absorb all that complexity that was not introduced elsewhere. &nbsp;Heres the real kicker. Its the relative value of the complexity. The 1E rules you quoted were more involved than the 4E version but at the same time, helped make the astral plane a more different and colorful place.&nbsp;All the core combat complexity in 4E? All you get are powers and effects that feel kind of the same for every class, more fixation on moving figures around a board, and feeling like a n00b adventurer at every level because you still miss with your best abilities roughly half the time.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ExploderWizard, post: 4607796, member: 66434"] Rules have certainly changed over time and some of that change has involved the adding of complexity to the rules. If adding some complexity brings depth and flavor to the game then it may be worth the price. 1E AD&D had some complex subsystems that were not needed in my opinion. 4E has built in core complexity with the same problem. The majority of people who think 4E is not a complex game may be looking at it through the " rose colored glasses" that came from playing 3E for years. 3E had rules for nearly everything, some good, and some not so good. 4E simplified a great many things often to the point of handwaving them away completely. I think the complexity of 4E has just been redistributed. The way I see it, the 4E design is prone to more complexity rather than less due to focus on built-in game balance. This will become more apparent as the splat books pile up. Trying to maintain this elusive balance will result in more complexity rather than less. Sure, rules for things like planar environments and other non-combat related things will get greatly simplified. Anything involving combat will absorb all that complexity that was not introduced elsewhere. Heres the real kicker. Its the relative value of the complexity. The 1E rules you quoted were more involved than the 4E version but at the same time, helped make the astral plane a more different and colorful place. All the core combat complexity in 4E? All you get are powers and effects that feel kind of the same for every class, more fixation on moving figures around a board, and feeling like a n00b adventurer at every level because you still miss with your best abilities roughly half the time. [/QUOTE]

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