Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 8320218" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p><a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/spellcasters-and-balance-in-5e-a-poll.680650/" target="_blank">This thread</a> prompted me to read the <a href="https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Grease#content" target="_blank">5e Grease spell</a>. Here's the core effect of the spell:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">When the grease appears, each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone. A creature that enters the area or ends its turn there must also succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone.</p><p></p><p>To me, this seems a microcosm of the issues with balance in contemporary, non-4e, D&D play.</p><p></p><p>The effect is of (roughly) equal utility at all levels - being prone is a debuff that costs movement to overcome, and there is no general tendency of higher-level NPCs/monsters to have immunity to the debuff (eg flying) nor to have more of the resource used to overcome it (ie movement rate). (The fact that the 5e movement penalty to stand from prone isn't as severe as in some other editions doesn't change the fact that it is a penalty that facilitates mobility-based tactics on the player side, as well as an immediate debuff against close combat attacks.)</p><p></p><p>But the cost - the expenditure of a 1st level spell slot - reduces dramatically with level, particularly given Arcane Recovery, and at the highest levels of play Spell Mastery. (This is the contrast with 4e - an encounter or daily power is an encounter or daily power, and there is no particular class build that reduces this to a negligible resource cost.)</p><p></p><p>It therefore seems to me that this ability is broken, and to be honest obviously so - given that other characters (especially rogues and fighters, who are notionally meant to be useful in fights) do not get similar AoE debuff abilities that become trivial in cost as level goes up. The only way in which this spell seems not just as broken as the 3E version is that it is save-based - and so that aspect may, though need not, scale with level on the defensive as well as attacking side (whereas in 3E it was skill-check based on an obscure skill (Balance) and so almost certainly didn't scale).</p><p></p><p>This may be a particularly pointed example, but I think it generalises to other effects that generate meaningful debuffs at an ever-reduced resource cost as the caster gains levels. And given this context, I really don't see how there can be caster/martial balance.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 8320218, member: 42582"] [url=https://www.enworld.org/threads/spellcasters-and-balance-in-5e-a-poll.680650/]This thread[/url] prompted me to read the [url=https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Grease#content]5e Grease spell[/url]. Here's the core effect of the spell: [indent]When the grease appears, each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone. A creature that enters the area or ends its turn there must also succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone.[/indent] To me, this seems a microcosm of the issues with balance in contemporary, non-4e, D&D play. The effect is of (roughly) equal utility at all levels - being prone is a debuff that costs movement to overcome, and there is no general tendency of higher-level NPCs/monsters to have immunity to the debuff (eg flying) nor to have more of the resource used to overcome it (ie movement rate). (The fact that the 5e movement penalty to stand from prone isn't as severe as in some other editions doesn't change the fact that it is a penalty that facilitates mobility-based tactics on the player side, as well as an immediate debuff against close combat attacks.) But the cost - the expenditure of a 1st level spell slot - reduces dramatically with level, particularly given Arcane Recovery, and at the highest levels of play Spell Mastery. (This is the contrast with 4e - an encounter or daily power is an encounter or daily power, and there is no particular class build that reduces this to a negligible resource cost.) It therefore seems to me that this ability is broken, and to be honest obviously so - given that other characters (especially rogues and fighters, who are notionally meant to be useful in fights) do not get similar AoE debuff abilities that become trivial in cost as level goes up. The only way in which this spell seems not just as broken as the 3E version is that it is save-based - and so that aspect may, though need not, scale with level on the defensive as well as attacking side (whereas in 3E it was skill-check based on an obscure skill (Balance) and so almost certainly didn't scale). This may be a particularly pointed example, but I think it generalises to other effects that generate meaningful debuffs at an ever-reduced resource cost as the caster gains levels. And given this context, I really don't see how there can be caster/martial balance. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell
Top